Perhaps Linden isn't able to harness the power because the ring now belongs to LF. TC gave it to him.
It would be cool if in the 3rd book TC is once again impotent because LF is the rightful owner of the ring. It was given to him. In the real world TC gave his life to LF and in the Land TC gave up his life and the ring.
He told Linden to pick it up, perhaps to keep it away from LF.
If this topic has been brought up before I appologize. I just got up and check to see if my membership had gone through and this was one of the topics I wanted to talk about but I have to leave and don't have time for a proper search.
Isn't it possible that LA bringing TC back is what allowed time travel and the caesures and even the insequent? After all, isn't TC the time warden. Cause and effect could be completely messed up now because of LA.
I really hate the time travel stuff by the way.
Isn't Foul the rightful weilder of the ring
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Stark Raver
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wayfriend
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That's a very interesting point. I've wondered the same, from time to time.
Clearly, Covenant gives the ring to Foul, in every way that is meaningful. It is the condition upon which Foul depends, and so it is the condition that he demands. Covenant yields to Foul, and concedes the ring in the manner that Foul demands.
The ring is, for that moment, Lord Foul's. Any other conclusion would undermine the logic of the story. Foul's plotting was all about acquiring a "given ring".
Then Lord Foul attempts to break the Arch, fails, and is reduced. The ring falls to the floor, and rolls to Linden's feet.
Whose ring is it now?
Now Covenant urges Linden to take the ring. "Pick up the ring!" he urges her. Three times, with the same words each time.
If we want to notice the specifics, he is neither physically giving her the ring, as he doesn't physically have it, nor is he verbally giving her the ring, as he doesn't say "the ring is yours" or "I give you this ring", nor can he logically give her the ring, as it is not his at this time.
If these specifics are important, then they may be a clue that something fishy is going on here. On the other hand, there is the simple (and expedient) explanation that Covenant, at this time, felt that the ring had reverted back to him, and that he is, indeed, capable of granting the ring.
(There is a third choice here. Because I now think that, in absorbing Foul's attacks on the Arch, Covenant became one with Lord Foul. And so I try to interpret everything in that light. In that light, one might say that, for all intents and purposes, when Covenant gives Linden the ring, it is the same as Foul giving Linden the ring. And since it is Foul's ring, it is freely given.)
Eventually, Linden chooses to take the ring. She doesn't just grab it. She waits, against imminent dissolution, and doesn't take it until she chooses to take it. It is utterly a matter of volition, no one slips that ring into her pocket unawares. So, from her position, she accepts that which is given.
She takes the ring, and uses it just as if it is hers. There is no sign that any aspect of the power of wild magic is inaccessible to her. If it is not a "given ring", then there is no sign of it as she resists the pull of unsummoning and makes the new Staff of Law and heals the Earth of the Sunbane.
In the denouement, Covenant does not say one thing or another to confirm whether or not the ring is hers, or whether or not he wanted her to have it. But she had it, and woke up with it, and perhaps in not saying anything, in not contradictiing what Linden thought and what Linden held, that he affirmed it.
Later, in Runes, Linden seems unable to access the power of the ring more often than not. But we learn before the end that the reason for this is Kevin's Dirt, blocking her percipience. When she is clear of the Dirt, the ring responds again as if it is hers and no one elses. If it is not a "given ring", there's nothing to indicate it.
And Foul, in speaking directly to Linden, made no reference to her ring belonging to any other. He never mentions the ring ... nor any plan for it.
She clearly calls the ring "Covenant's ring" as often as not. But it is inconclusive if she means (perhaps unconsciously) that the ring is not hers, or if she only means that it is the ring that Covenant gave her.
In Fatal Revenent, Roger asks for the ring, and Linden refuses. This shows, as far as both of them are concerned, and perhaps Foul as well, that the ring is, indeed, hers to give.
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Conclusion?
I think that the ring is Linden's. But there is some legerdemain in the matter of ownership when the ring falls clinking to the stone floor of Gravin Threndor.
What Covenant specifically does not say, and specifically does not do, could lead one to believe that there might be somethng tricky going on here. But it's not enough to convince me the ring isn't Linden's.
It's a great question though. Maybe ask it in the GI?
Clearly, Covenant gives the ring to Foul, in every way that is meaningful. It is the condition upon which Foul depends, and so it is the condition that he demands. Covenant yields to Foul, and concedes the ring in the manner that Foul demands.
The ring is, for that moment, Lord Foul's. Any other conclusion would undermine the logic of the story. Foul's plotting was all about acquiring a "given ring".
Then Lord Foul attempts to break the Arch, fails, and is reduced. The ring falls to the floor, and rolls to Linden's feet.
Whose ring is it now?
Now Covenant urges Linden to take the ring. "Pick up the ring!" he urges her. Three times, with the same words each time.
If we want to notice the specifics, he is neither physically giving her the ring, as he doesn't physically have it, nor is he verbally giving her the ring, as he doesn't say "the ring is yours" or "I give you this ring", nor can he logically give her the ring, as it is not his at this time.
If these specifics are important, then they may be a clue that something fishy is going on here. On the other hand, there is the simple (and expedient) explanation that Covenant, at this time, felt that the ring had reverted back to him, and that he is, indeed, capable of granting the ring.
(There is a third choice here. Because I now think that, in absorbing Foul's attacks on the Arch, Covenant became one with Lord Foul. And so I try to interpret everything in that light. In that light, one might say that, for all intents and purposes, when Covenant gives Linden the ring, it is the same as Foul giving Linden the ring. And since it is Foul's ring, it is freely given.)
Eventually, Linden chooses to take the ring. She doesn't just grab it. She waits, against imminent dissolution, and doesn't take it until she chooses to take it. It is utterly a matter of volition, no one slips that ring into her pocket unawares. So, from her position, she accepts that which is given.
She takes the ring, and uses it just as if it is hers. There is no sign that any aspect of the power of wild magic is inaccessible to her. If it is not a "given ring", then there is no sign of it as she resists the pull of unsummoning and makes the new Staff of Law and heals the Earth of the Sunbane.
In the denouement, Covenant does not say one thing or another to confirm whether or not the ring is hers, or whether or not he wanted her to have it. But she had it, and woke up with it, and perhaps in not saying anything, in not contradictiing what Linden thought and what Linden held, that he affirmed it.
Later, in Runes, Linden seems unable to access the power of the ring more often than not. But we learn before the end that the reason for this is Kevin's Dirt, blocking her percipience. When she is clear of the Dirt, the ring responds again as if it is hers and no one elses. If it is not a "given ring", there's nothing to indicate it.
And Foul, in speaking directly to Linden, made no reference to her ring belonging to any other. He never mentions the ring ... nor any plan for it.
She clearly calls the ring "Covenant's ring" as often as not. But it is inconclusive if she means (perhaps unconsciously) that the ring is not hers, or if she only means that it is the ring that Covenant gave her.
In Fatal Revenent, Roger asks for the ring, and Linden refuses. This shows, as far as both of them are concerned, and perhaps Foul as well, that the ring is, indeed, hers to give.
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Conclusion?
I think that the ring is Linden's. But there is some legerdemain in the matter of ownership when the ring falls clinking to the stone floor of Gravin Threndor.
What Covenant specifically does not say, and specifically does not do, could lead one to believe that there might be somethng tricky going on here. But it's not enough to convince me the ring isn't Linden's.
It's a great question though. Maybe ask it in the GI?
.
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Zarathustra
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I can't really see a difference between, "Pick up the ring" and "take the ring, it's yours." Does Covenant really have to place it in her hand? Isn't giving her permission enough?
I can see how it was Lord Foul's, and thus not Covenant's to give. And he didn't technically give it to Linden by his own freewill. But he did freely continue to blast himself into nothingness, and thereby "gave up" the ring. No one forced him to give it up. Nor is it accurate to say he merely lost it.
I can see how it was Lord Foul's, and thus not Covenant's to give. And he didn't technically give it to Linden by his own freewill. But he did freely continue to blast himself into nothingness, and thereby "gave up" the ring. No one forced him to give it up. Nor is it accurate to say he merely lost it.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
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Stark Raver
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Yes, I see both your points. However, didn't TC already know that Foul could not be destroyed. He gave it to Foul before he died and knew that Foul couldn't die. Although Foul became temporarily incorporate, he still lived and didn't give up the ring. Remember, TC told Foul that he, Foul, was out of his mind. I believe that is why Foul resembled TC.
I have another cool scenario. The TC Linden brought to life isn't really TC but just an embodiment of him as she believed him to be. Since the event of time travel has been introduced, this new TC could be the birth of LF and the reason he so resembles TC. Could it be that Jone eventually sends the new TC back to the beginning or that what is left of the Time Warden lacking something essential about himself, because of what Linden has done, becomes Foul. Doesn't the Time Warden exist at all times and all places within the Land. Jeremiah is the Creator.
I have another cool scenario. The TC Linden brought to life isn't really TC but just an embodiment of him as she believed him to be. Since the event of time travel has been introduced, this new TC could be the birth of LF and the reason he so resembles TC. Could it be that Jone eventually sends the new TC back to the beginning or that what is left of the Time Warden lacking something essential about himself, because of what Linden has done, becomes Foul. Doesn't the Time Warden exist at all times and all places within the Land. Jeremiah is the Creator.
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Stark Raver
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Just because she percieved it to be her wedding ring signifies nothing actual. Foul could call it his wedding ring because him and TC were practically we by TC's submission to whatever Foul threw at him. TC was dead. How could she marry him.alanm wrote:last sentence of WGW
with her right hand Linden kept a sure hold on her wedding ring
The ring belongs to Linden
This goes back to what I've said about the difference in attitude that Linden has concerning the ring in WGW and ROTE. She certainly felt like the ring was hers at the end of WGW, no doubt about it.alanm wrote:last sentence of WGW
with her right hand Linden kept a sure hold on her wedding ring
The ring belongs to Linden
Also, I'm reminded that Covenant actually tried to give the ring to Linden prior to meeting Foul in Kiril Threndor. Maybe in Covenant's mind, with Foul gone, the ring defaulted back to Linden.
I agree that this would make an excellent GI question.
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wayfriend
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I don't think Linden ever considered Covenant her husband. It's a wedding ring, it's hers, so it's "her wedding ring". Her (wedding ring), not (her wedding) ring.
The fact remains that, when Foul evaporated, the claim on the ring was up for grabs.
Sure, Covenant and Linden both assumed that Linden could "pick it up" and it would be hers.
But the logic that the entire six books depends on is: if you just kill Covenant and take his ring, it's not going to be as powerful for you as it would be if it was given. A "swiped ring" is not as good as a "given ring".
Now, what we have here is Foul has the ring, he is defeated, and then someone took his ring. This is exacltly the circumstance that must mean that the ring will not be as powerful for you as it could have been. It is not a "given ring", it is a "swiped ring".
Or maybe not. At least, this is the area where I see the problem.
The fact remains that, when Foul evaporated, the claim on the ring was up for grabs.
Sure, Covenant and Linden both assumed that Linden could "pick it up" and it would be hers.
But the logic that the entire six books depends on is: if you just kill Covenant and take his ring, it's not going to be as powerful for you as it would be if it was given. A "swiped ring" is not as good as a "given ring".
Now, what we have here is Foul has the ring, he is defeated, and then someone took his ring. This is exacltly the circumstance that must mean that the ring will not be as powerful for you as it could have been. It is not a "given ring", it is a "swiped ring".
Or maybe not. At least, this is the area where I see the problem.
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This makes some sense to me. I also don't think that Linden considered herself to be Covenant's wife.Now, what we have here is Foul has the ring, he is defeated, and then someone took his ring. This is exacltly the circumstance that must mean that the ring will not be as powerful for you as it could have been. It is not a "given ring", it is a "stolen ring".
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SGuilfoyle1966
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I am curious about one thing.
Berenford wakes up Linden.
She is left apart for a few moments only.
So how did she GET the ring, in the real world? Even moreso than the line about "her wedding ring," I think the answer to this question would tend to establish it as "her" ring.
There is the question of things in the Land effecting the "real world."
The Creator said that he could heal Covenant, allow him to believe his experiences were real. Covenant, not the Creator, addresses Linden at the end of the Second Chronicles. He addresses her like a man of the Land addresses his beloved.
I think they are married. In my mind, at least, they are.
So, how did she GET the ring. Linden also told Roger that it was given to her before his father's death, so it's not part of the estate.
Berenford wakes up Linden.
She is left apart for a few moments only.
So how did she GET the ring, in the real world? Even moreso than the line about "her wedding ring," I think the answer to this question would tend to establish it as "her" ring.
There is the question of things in the Land effecting the "real world."
The Creator said that he could heal Covenant, allow him to believe his experiences were real. Covenant, not the Creator, addresses Linden at the end of the Second Chronicles. He addresses her like a man of the Land addresses his beloved.
I think they are married. In my mind, at least, they are.
So, how did she GET the ring. Linden also told Roger that it was given to her before his father's death, so it's not part of the estate.
I would suggest (and this surely is the whole point of the final chapter or WGW) that Covenant cannot really give the ring away at all because he IS the White Gold. He remains the essence of the ring and of wild magic, no matter who wields it. If someone is using the ring with his blessing, it is more effective than in someone is using the ring without his blessing.
I'm curious to know if he IS the White Gold in relation to Joan's ring too.
I'm curious to know if he IS the White Gold in relation to Joan's ring too.
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Insanity Falls
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Surely one can only give up the power over the wild magic.
You give up the power over the white magic, and therefore have no say at all on who has that power from then on.
If you happen to allow someone to have it when you give it up, well, it's *that* person who has the power from then on. The original owner can have no further say in the matter at all.
At least, that's what makes sense to me.
Foul fundamentally lost it when he spent himself.
He absolutely lost control of himself, and therefore must have lost the white gold too, thus giving Linden (and Findail) an opportunity to assert power over the white magic. Linden seized that power. It's her ring. Whether she realizes it or not.
Foul is back. But he effectively died. Doubtless the Law of Life being broken facilitated his return. And there were things like Ravers around to draw him back to life (and Ravers to possess Joan and create the possibility of the seizures, and the loss of the Staff of Law). But it is not his ring at all anymore.
You give up the power over the white magic, and therefore have no say at all on who has that power from then on.
If you happen to allow someone to have it when you give it up, well, it's *that* person who has the power from then on. The original owner can have no further say in the matter at all.
At least, that's what makes sense to me.
Foul fundamentally lost it when he spent himself.
He absolutely lost control of himself, and therefore must have lost the white gold too, thus giving Linden (and Findail) an opportunity to assert power over the white magic. Linden seized that power. It's her ring. Whether she realizes it or not.
Foul is back. But he effectively died. Doubtless the Law of Life being broken facilitated his return. And there were things like Ravers around to draw him back to life (and Ravers to possess Joan and create the possibility of the seizures, and the loss of the Staff of Law). But it is not his ring at all anymore.
"The first quality that is needed is audacity"
~ Winston Churchill
~ Winston Churchill
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Insanity Falls
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On second thoughts, native has got me thinking.
Covenant just couldn't lose power over the wild magic, even when he gave the reigns to Foul.
His being has attained (or always had) some inalienable connection to the wild magic.
Will Foul then too regain some power over the wild magic now that he's also been white weilder, and now that he is back? He has personally experienced that power, and perhaps that's all that is needed.
Which mean Covenant, Foul, and Linden* must somehow all have their fingers on the button. Who shall win?
*(and Elena and Troy too!)
Covenant just couldn't lose power over the wild magic, even when he gave the reigns to Foul.
His being has attained (or always had) some inalienable connection to the wild magic.
Will Foul then too regain some power over the wild magic now that he's also been white weilder, and now that he is back? He has personally experienced that power, and perhaps that's all that is needed.
Which mean Covenant, Foul, and Linden* must somehow all have their fingers on the button. Who shall win?
*(and Elena and Troy too!)
"The first quality that is needed is audacity"
~ Winston Churchill
~ Winston Churchill
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wayfriend
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The Elders of Revelwood held the ring for a short time. Of course, they did not use it.
I don't know anyone who likes that answer. I don't. I insist that it is magic. Magic which, like going to the Land, could be explained away. I prefer to think that the consonance between the Land and the real world was able to exert in the opposite direction - the real world, just a tiny bit, was changed to match what happened in the Land.
There's a thread somewhere specifically about this ...
In the GI, Donaldson says that Linden had taken it while she was partly unconsciuous.SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:I am curious about one thing. ... So how did she GET the ring, in the real world?
I don't know anyone who likes that answer. I don't. I insist that it is magic. Magic which, like going to the Land, could be explained away. I prefer to think that the consonance between the Land and the real world was able to exert in the opposite direction - the real world, just a tiny bit, was changed to match what happened in the Land.
There's a thread somewhere specifically about this ...
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