Significance of missing creator

[Unfettered One]

Admittedly, we don't have a whole lot to work with here.

I think that the Creator will bring someone totally new to the Land eventually, and here's why.

So far as we know, the Creator has only appeared to TC and LA, both previously ignorant of the Land, and both subsequently translated.

So let's look at this from another angle.

Here's a list of all of the people from TC's world who have gone into the Land.

TC - Met him, and returned. Didn't meet him for 2nd Chron, and didn't return.
Hile Troy - Unknown if he met the Creator, but not mentioned. Didn't return.
LA - Met him, and returned. Didn't meet him for Last Chron, and unlikely to return.
RC, JC, Jeremiah - Unknown if they met the Creator, but were previously associated / in contact with the Land through other means.

I think that if you meet the Creator before you go to the Land, you'll eventually return back to TC's world.

[dougkeenan]

Good catch.

[wayfriend]

Unfortunately, I think, two books in, it's too late to introduce a new character from the real world.

And I also think that it makes no sense for the creator to have met someone and sent him/her to the Land already, and the author doesn't write about that experience directly too us.

[Unfettered One]

Unfortunately, I think, two books in, it's too late to introduce a new character from the real world.

I agree, SRD wouldn't go back to TC's world and show us that episode.

However, LA has the Staff, the Ring, and the Krill. She could summon someone who would then recount how he/she met some old begger.

[Aleksandr]

Re: Unfortunately, I think, two books in, it's too late to introduce a new character from the real world.

There was some speculation back in the Runes board that Sandy and even the Sheriff might have been hauled into the Land. The Sheriff I very much doubt, but I think Jeremiah's babysitter is still a possibility.

[amanibhavam]

Unfortunately, I think, two books in, it's too late to introduce a new character from the real world.

And I also think that it makes no sense for the creator to have met someone and sent him/her to the Land already, and the author doesn't write about that experience directly too us.

Hile Troy was introduced in Book Two out of three so I would not rule out anything - there is still plenty of room to do any plot-twisting in those 2000 pages to come...

[wayfriend]

Unfortunately, I think, two books in, it's too late to introduce a new character from the real world.

And I also think that it makes no sense for the creator to have met someone and sent him/her to the Land already, and the author doesn't write about that experience directly too us.

Hile Troy was introduced in Book Two out of three so I would not rule out anything - there is still plenty of room to do any plot-twisting in those 2000 pages to come...

I stand corrected. I mean to say, and should have said, it's too late to introduce a new character who is the creator's chosen. On the grounds that being the creator's chosen involves having personal issues which are worked out as part of saving the land, so you need a long preface for the character before he/she gets to the land, and then you need to explore how their issues are made concrete in the Land, etc...

[Cail]

Unfortunately Wayfriend, SRD can do anything he wants, including mucking with history and introducing new races that change said history.

[ninjaboy]

Cail - cannot believe you're still so bitter about that... I Mean it's obvious that there can only really be One proper 'History of the Land' - and obviously the thousand year old history that had been passed down from generation to generation changed through the retelling over the years, and some things got edited out, so what we were first told was a little different to how it actually happened - but that's the same WITH ALL FREAKING HISTORIES!!! The only thing worth mentioning is how the author, SD, made a mistake when writing the history of One Tree guards.. So Chillax, Amanda

And...

Yeah - I mean so far the 3rd Chrons have been the Chrons of Linden Avery, to make the last two books on the series The Chronichles of Someone Else Entirely would be a little..
I think 'sucky' is the term I'm looking for...

Anyone introduced from here on in will not be as important as TC, LA, Anele, Jeremiah, Stave, the Ramen & Liand.. Esmer, Roger, Kastenessen, Foul and the.. is there a name to refer to this group of Giants?? And obviously the Insequent, Elohim and Viles.. and Ravers.. And Sandgorgons.. And I think that's pretty much every damn person or bunch of people we've met.. (except Joan) Anyone else would be like Hamako - you like them and they die, but the story keeps going on..

[Seppi2112]

::sniffle:: I miss Hamako

[Bran Pendragon]

My view is that the Creator felt no need to word up Linden before she came back, just as he felt no need to word up TC before the 2nd Chrons. I think he only speaks to his chosen ones the first time - anything more they become tools.

Jeremiah's an interesting one - he mentioned he spoke with losts of people inc. TC, Foul (I think, but he ran away), etc etc. Maybe the Creator was one of those. Or maybe that whole story of previous contact with the Land is bull**** concocted by the croyel. (although there's the lego Revelstone still unexplained if that's the case).

[Mr. Broken]

Although we have not seen the "creator", we have perhaps seen a creator in the making in the boy. Are we sure that Linden was not just sucked along with his summoning.

[sweetbread]

Hey all, check this out. A little tidbit of knowledge that Wayfriend posted in the 1st & 2nd Chronicles forum.

Was he guided by the Creator???

Apparently so.

"In sorrow and humility, the Creator saw what he had done. So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law, a weapon against Despite. But the very Law of the Earth's creation permits nothing more."

I'm guessing that means then, that the Theomach is The Creator?!? Wikked possibilities....

[Ur Dead]

1. The creator can not be on the world, otherwise it goes poof!

2. The creator can most likely see events occur on the world but can not directly act to direct a course of action or rectify an problem. See item 1.

3. The creator can interact with disembodied spirits between worlds and can send that spirit to observe an event. (See TPTP's ending with Covenant)

4. It's unknown if the creator can translate a person to the Land. (I guess if Foul can summon from the inside then the creator can place people from the place where the creator is.)

5. The full abilities of the Theomach is unknown. Can the Theomach place his being in a state where he can talk to the creator? If yes then there's the link on how Berek was guided by the creator. If no, then go ask SRD.

[sweetbread]

1. The creator can not be on the world, otherwise it goes poof!

Yes, but what IF the Arch of Time was broken in the FUTURE?? Then the Creator could enter the Land, and, assuming that he could navigate time, could indeed go back to become the Theomach. If the Arch is broken in the future, is could possibly exist still in the past.... theoretically....




ironically, I looked up the word "theomach" and here's what I came up with.

The word itself is Greek in origin, and it means:

"Someone who opposes divinity or who fights against God or the gods."

Really makes ya wonder now, doesn't it?

[Ur Dead]

Well if the Arch is to be broken the world would go away and Foul is released.

That meaning for the Theomach has come up in other threads with the same meaning. It may be that the Insequent Theomach was to oppose the Elohim. Who by their personna would be considered gods. In FR it is stated that the Theomach did opppose the Elohim and supposely defeating the original guardian of the one tree, he accomplished their greatest defeat. The Vizard on the other hand, wanted to destroy them utterly.

Others point out, in the other books, that it was stated that there wasn't a guardian before Berek attained the place of the one tree. Berek put the 1st guardian to protect the tree. So it may be convient for SRD to have Findail lie about some histories and mislead on other events in TOT and WGW, to portray Findail's desperation of not meeting his doom. If you remember the second Chronicles, Findail by hook or crook was suppose to gain the White Gold so he may have told truths and lies when he felt that it would accomplish his purpose.

Others argue that Findail always lied about events and maybe was covering up the "honor" of his race. That they(Elohim) wouldn't accept that a lesser race caused shame to the real masters of the world. And others said that SRD had created an error or a discrepancy in his Chronicles.
I would hope that SRD would say that Findail lied when needed so the issue of the Insequent's race would be laid to rest. How could you suddenly have the apperance of such a powerful race and not account for them in the other books? This may also explain why Brinn and the other Haruchai did not trust the Elohim in TOT. The Haruchai knew doubt and Stave's tale about 25 score of his people met the Vizard is the explainion on why the Haruchai mistrust people with alot of power. They got humilated by the Vizard and this (mistrust) event may have become a a part of thier culture over the thousand years they remained in their mountains.

Their second jaunt from their mountains they met another powerful race. The High Lords. But instead of proving themselves in battle, they were shown graciousness, beauty of the Land and were welcomed with open arms. They were again humilated and to prove their worth, they took the vow. That led to it's breaking in TPTP and the only way they were redeemed was when Brinn defeated the Guardian. But it took someone who failed to win the battle. The Haruchai don't take defeat graciously. They have developed a complex. It has been Runes and FR that made me realize that the problem with the Land is the Haruchai. In accordance with SRD writing, it was Foul whom place small bits of advice, here and there. Once of them was to exploit the Haruchai's problem. Make sure no race gets an upper hand in power over their own idea of what is might and right. (Fist & Faith- Sorry F&F couldn't resist that )


But back to the Creator. It's established that if the Creator touches the world, he will end it and Foul will be freed. If the Arch is broken Foul is released. So the only option for the Creator is to stay back and watch and hope. He told Covenant in TPTP that he took a chance by even talking to him that one time before Covenant first translated to the Land. Talking to Linden was a gamble also. Linden told Covenant and Covenant knew that Linden was going with him and she was the chosen one. Hence, Linden Avery the Chosen. If the Creator sent somebody to the Land then that person would be a tool of the Creator with no real chance of free will. He/she would be working for the Creator and Foul by definition would be able to exploit that weakness. But as of the third chronicles, SRD hasn't revealed what the Creator did or didn't do. The only clue Linden knew she might be involve with the Land again was when Jeremiah built the two models (Revelstone and Mt. Thunder) but we don't know if it was Foul or the Creator that set that in motion. We know that Jeremiah has been influence by Foul since he was the age of 5.

If the Creator appears in these books then it would contradict the two previous Chronicles. Thats something that SRD wouldn't want because it would void his established story.

Also I believe that Covenant isn't Foul nor Creator. ( I believe that question was asked at an Elohimfest (2007) and SRD indicated a no responce.)
What I stated about the Theomach previously would make sense if the Theomach could commute with the Creator in a way where he was inspired to act. But it also would lend creadence to the tales that it was the Creator whom (indirectly) showed Berek on how to make the original staff. In other words, by proxy of the Theomach and the Creator hasn't place his hand upon the world. The Theomach is the contrivance of the Creator.

We don't know much about the Insequents but they have to be long lived tho not immortal. (The Vizard was in his power in the time of Berek and died and few centries ago from Runes and FR. So his age was close to 10000 years - It's presumed that Brinn defeated Kenaustin Aldenol (Theomach) who maybe have been 6500 years plus. The Madoubt and Harrow ages are unknown and havn't been revealed)

But if the Creator places his hand upon the world it would end and Foul freed. That has been stressed in the previous books. The conversation between Covenant and the Creator at the end of TPTP pretty well defines what the Creator could do or wished to do.

[Relayer]

"In sorrow and humility, the Creator saw what he had done. So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law, a weapon against Despite. But the very Law of the Earth's creation permits nothing more."

I'm guessing that means then, that the Theomach is The Creator?!? Wikked possibilities....

Remember that the story above is not Fact, it's the tale told by the Lords (or Atiaran) about the creation. The people of the Land may have needed to believe that the Creator had a hand in their past, but that doesn't mean that it did happen that way. It's likely that Theomach planted that story to cover his involvement.

... which leads into more time-loop headaches which I'll eschew for the time being.

[Rigel]

ironically, I looked up the word "theomach" and here's what I came up with.

The word itself is Greek in origin, and it means:

"Someone who opposes divinity or who fights against God or the gods."

Really makes ya wonder now, doesn't it?

Interesting, especially considering that "Elohim" is a Hebrew word meaning "Gods". Note the plurality: Some believe that the plurality refers to a multitude of Gods (literally, "The Gods"), while others (and this is the traditional interpretation) say it refers to "a multitude of perfections in the one God."

(Either way, it makes me think that the Elohim named themselves.)

[Mr. Broken]

Perhaps the significance is that the Creator, is the only main character to exist outside the AOT, now I dont why he wasnt present at the beginning of the Last Chronicles but I wouldnt hold my breath til he makes an appearance. As far as I can tell his presence in the Land is something the AOT will not tolerate, and Linden Avery is still the Chosen. As far as we know he also only appeared to TC once, if you dont count the brief conversation in the limbo between worlds at the end of TPTP.

[Würd-o]

Oh, the author said "yet".

*wind chime laugh*

What hope do we have? The Timewarden has been ripped from the Arch. "You are the white gold." White Gold has been ripped from the Arch. The keystone is removed (cut to: the eye of the worm snapping open) and walking the Land again. The Arch must topple. The Worm is roused. Every Elohim is food. And, the Despiser will be free --

-- to issue challenge to the one we haven't heard from yet (this time).



Perhaps the Creator couldn't so much as speak to the enactors of this fate, because they must be 100% free this time, not so much as warned or encouraged, because this time the battle won't ultimately be theirs. They could not be guided, because the guide himself must acknowledge the necessity of freedom. Even as he must acknowledge his own name.

Will the Creator make the ultimate sacrifice to have done with a-Jeroth and show faith in his creation, unguided? Will he die, as dead as any body under a shroud? Gone as any story, when the last page is turned?

Good thing we have the keystone of Time, the bearer of Law, and the one who can manipulate the raw material of the Elohim like puzzle pieces to help out among Creation. Afterward.