I was sitting around the other day listening to the audiobook and it hit me to ask....
Star Wars in essence is nothing more than a tragedy. The same could be said for Harry Potter. Some could say the second biggest character behind Harry is Snape.
In both stories it is the tragic hero's msitakes that cause EVERYTHING to happen and at the end there is some sort of redemption for the bad deeds that they have done in the name of love.
I ask you, which is more of a tragedy?
Bigger Tragedy: Snape or Darth Vader
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Stubby Boardman
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Depends, does it not, on what precisely one means by "tragedy?"
For example, Anakin Skywalker had a lot more going for him from day one. He was loved by his mother, and won the positive attention of both an older brother and various father figures. He fell in love with a lovely young lady who returned his affections, becoming his wife and bearing his children. From this wonderful state, he descended in rage and vanity and fear to a mass murderer an order of magnitude worse than Adolf Hitler, a slaughterer of children who is crippled while trying to murder his best friend. At the end he is redeemed, allowed to enter the Jedi equivalent of Heaven because he refused to allow the Emperor to kill Vader's own son.
Honestly? As far as great tragedies go, meh.
Severus Snape, on the other hand, grew up in an unhappy home sans loving parents or parental figures. He used his own fierce will and intellect to try and build a future many times better than his present--and made a serious of hideous mistakes, the worst of those ultimately tossing away the only real chance at Love he would ever know. Loyalty to a cause led to his Loved One's death. He then traded the cause in which he believed for seven years of effort protecting a living breathing image of the hated one whom his Love chose over him. Salt poured into the open wound of his soul. Despised by those on whose behalf he worked, envied and plotted against by his so-called allies, he at last was murdered painfully, his last act insuring that Lilly's child would die--the child whose protection had been his reason to live.
I vote for Snape. But that depends upon how I see their stories.
For example, Anakin Skywalker had a lot more going for him from day one. He was loved by his mother, and won the positive attention of both an older brother and various father figures. He fell in love with a lovely young lady who returned his affections, becoming his wife and bearing his children. From this wonderful state, he descended in rage and vanity and fear to a mass murderer an order of magnitude worse than Adolf Hitler, a slaughterer of children who is crippled while trying to murder his best friend. At the end he is redeemed, allowed to enter the Jedi equivalent of Heaven because he refused to allow the Emperor to kill Vader's own son.
Honestly? As far as great tragedies go, meh.
Severus Snape, on the other hand, grew up in an unhappy home sans loving parents or parental figures. He used his own fierce will and intellect to try and build a future many times better than his present--and made a serious of hideous mistakes, the worst of those ultimately tossing away the only real chance at Love he would ever know. Loyalty to a cause led to his Loved One's death. He then traded the cause in which he believed for seven years of effort protecting a living breathing image of the hated one whom his Love chose over him. Salt poured into the open wound of his soul. Despised by those on whose behalf he worked, envied and plotted against by his so-called allies, he at last was murdered painfully, his last act insuring that Lilly's child would die--the child whose protection had been his reason to live.
I vote for Snape. But that depends upon how I see their stories.
"O let my name be in the Book of Love!
It be there, I care not of the other great book Above.
Strike it out! Or, write it in anew. But
Let my name be in the Book of Love!" --Omar Khayam
It be there, I care not of the other great book Above.
Strike it out! Or, write it in anew. But
Let my name be in the Book of Love!" --Omar Khayam
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A Gunslinger
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Snape's demise was pre-ordained simply cuz he wuz my FAVORITE character...my faves always get pasted. Having said that, and knowing it...I still wept like a blubbering ninny.
Vader? Not enough depth there to really care about when he was eventually killed. It was far more dramatic to see how he was forged...the piss-poor quality of the movies (and acting) aside.
Snape by FAR.
Vader? Not enough depth there to really care about when he was eventually killed. It was far more dramatic to see how he was forged...the piss-poor quality of the movies (and acting) aside.
Snape by FAR.
"I use my gun whenever kindness fails"
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Seafoam Understone
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Definitely Snape was the bigger tragedy because his whole life was just a Gothic's dream.
If they had done Anakin's story right, i.e. the way that it was ORIGINALLY meant to be told then yeah it'd be a more tragic story. But the dunderheads in their quest for the almighty dollar changed it around to appeal to a broader (and younger) audience and thus... well... you know.
By the way, I figgured out that Anakin was the chosen one to bring balance to the force... but he wasn't THE balance... it was Luke (and Leia) Luke used his anger (dark-side) to defeat Vader in combat but kept his good in showing mercy and refusal to the Emperor.
That to me was the balance to the force. Vader/Anakin was simply the means to bring it about... being the father.
If they had done Anakin's story right, i.e. the way that it was ORIGINALLY meant to be told then yeah it'd be a more tragic story. But the dunderheads in their quest for the almighty dollar changed it around to appeal to a broader (and younger) audience and thus... well... you know.
By the way, I figgured out that Anakin was the chosen one to bring balance to the force... but he wasn't THE balance... it was Luke (and Leia) Luke used his anger (dark-side) to defeat Vader in combat but kept his good in showing mercy and refusal to the Emperor.
That to me was the balance to the force. Vader/Anakin was simply the means to bring it about... being the father.
George Lucas actually said that Vader did bring balance to the Force by killing Palpatine.
Yeah, right.
Me, I thought an actual "balance" would be embodied in someone who was both Sith and Jedi, finding a way to live and act within that paradox.
Yeah, Donaldson is a better storyteller than Lucas. Who knew? <g>
Yeah, right.
Me, I thought an actual "balance" would be embodied in someone who was both Sith and Jedi, finding a way to live and act within that paradox.
Yeah, Donaldson is a better storyteller than Lucas. Who knew? <g>
"O let my name be in the Book of Love!
It be there, I care not of the other great book Above.
Strike it out! Or, write it in anew. But
Let my name be in the Book of Love!" --Omar Khayam
It be there, I care not of the other great book Above.
Strike it out! Or, write it in anew. But
Let my name be in the Book of Love!" --Omar Khayam
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Fuzzy_Logic
- Woodhelvennin
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How about someone who is neither Sith nor Jedi?
Luke flirts with the dark side, and really he's a Jedi is name only. He has essentially no connection, or even similarity, to the old order.
ETA: It depends on what you think defines tragedy.
Anakin's downfall is protrayed as more his own doing, Snape's more circumstantial. Also, Anakin fell from a higher height, while Snape was *never* happy.
Incidentally, I'm not sure I would paint as rosy a picture of Anakin's life as you do. It's very similar to Snape's in a lot of respects not properly highlighted by the movie's.
-- Born a slave
-- Rescued from slavery by powerful benefactors who can't be bothered to do anything for his mother
--His precocious powerand unusual background isolate him form his fellow Jedi and earn him the Masters' scorn form day one
-- Said masters' disapproval taints his romantic relationship, which devolves into a kind of sexual obsession
-- The masters send him repeatedly to fight their enemies, all the while criticizing his violence
-- His mother dies
-- He is forced to keep his impending fatherhood a secret, driving a wedge of mistrust between him and the council
-- when appointed to the council, the masters deliberatel snub him to make a political point; then, ask him to spy on one of the only people who seems to trust him.
Doesn't seem so remarkable that he went bad now, does it?
It's worth noting that, while often manipulative or exaggerated, almost everything negative said about the Jedi in these movies is literally true
"they're holding me back," for instance, or, "They're plotting to overthrow the republic."
Luke flirts with the dark side, and really he's a Jedi is name only. He has essentially no connection, or even similarity, to the old order.
ETA: It depends on what you think defines tragedy.
Anakin's downfall is protrayed as more his own doing, Snape's more circumstantial. Also, Anakin fell from a higher height, while Snape was *never* happy.
Incidentally, I'm not sure I would paint as rosy a picture of Anakin's life as you do. It's very similar to Snape's in a lot of respects not properly highlighted by the movie's.
-- Born a slave
-- Rescued from slavery by powerful benefactors who can't be bothered to do anything for his mother
--His precocious powerand unusual background isolate him form his fellow Jedi and earn him the Masters' scorn form day one
-- Said masters' disapproval taints his romantic relationship, which devolves into a kind of sexual obsession
-- The masters send him repeatedly to fight their enemies, all the while criticizing his violence
-- His mother dies
-- He is forced to keep his impending fatherhood a secret, driving a wedge of mistrust between him and the council
-- when appointed to the council, the masters deliberatel snub him to make a political point; then, ask him to spy on one of the only people who seems to trust him.
Doesn't seem so remarkable that he went bad now, does it?
It's worth noting that, while often manipulative or exaggerated, almost everything negative said about the Jedi in these movies is literally true
"they're holding me back," for instance, or, "They're plotting to overthrow the republic."
Last edited by Fuzzy_Logic on Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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High Lord Tolkien
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Hey, if Yoda says someone is a Jedi you really going to argue with him?Fuzzy_Logic wrote:
Luke flirts with the dark side, and really he's a Jedi is name only. He has essentially no connection, or even similarity, to the old order.
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Fuzzy_Logic
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First of all, Jedi are supposed ot eb trained form childhood -- one strike against him from the get go. He receives a few lightsaber lessons from Obi-Wan, but there's no indication he got much or any of the old Jedi philosophy.
He goes to Yoda for training, messes up the test of the dark cave, then abandons his training partway through. I'm not sure what exactly happens between movies, but when he returns to Yoda in ROTJ, Yoda dies, blessing him with the title of Jedi but not actually training him.
So his jedi pedigree is poor. But is he what a Jedi is supposed to be? not by a longshot.
He's not dispassionate or cooly rational. Not by a longshot. Luke is, in fact, at his best when he acts out of emotion.
He's an impulsive youth in the first movie, of course, albeit not unusualy so. He follows his heart to Cloud City; he is influenced by his romantic inclinations toward Leia. He lashes out in the dark cave.
When he actually defeats Vader, it's in a fit of rage. And even when he's being electrocuted he doesn't seem serene; it's the power of his emotion that draws Vader back to the light. In the expanded universe, he marries.
Luke fails almost every requirement of a Jedi Knight, and that's arguably why he's able to succeed.
He goes to Yoda for training, messes up the test of the dark cave, then abandons his training partway through. I'm not sure what exactly happens between movies, but when he returns to Yoda in ROTJ, Yoda dies, blessing him with the title of Jedi but not actually training him.
So his jedi pedigree is poor. But is he what a Jedi is supposed to be? not by a longshot.
He's not dispassionate or cooly rational. Not by a longshot. Luke is, in fact, at his best when he acts out of emotion.
He's an impulsive youth in the first movie, of course, albeit not unusualy so. He follows his heart to Cloud City; he is influenced by his romantic inclinations toward Leia. He lashes out in the dark cave.
When he actually defeats Vader, it's in a fit of rage. And even when he's being electrocuted he doesn't seem serene; it's the power of his emotion that draws Vader back to the light. In the expanded universe, he marries.
Luke fails almost every requirement of a Jedi Knight, and that's arguably why he's able to succeed.