Lucky Break or Violation of Civil Rights?

Post by **Lorelei** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:09 pm

Throw The Book At 'Em: Judge Sentences Three Men To Learn English Or Go To Jail
Monday, March 31, 2008
WBAL Radio and Associated Press

A judge known for creative sentencing has ordered three Spanish-speaking men to learn English or go to jail.

The men, who faced prison for criminal conspiracy to commit robbery, can remain on parole if they learn to read and write English, earn their GEDs and get full-time jobs, Luzerne County Judge Peter Paul Olszewski Jr. said.

The men, Luis Reyes, Ricardo Dominguez and Rafael Guzman-Mateo, plus a fourth defendant, Kelvin Reyes-Rosario, all needed translators when they pleaded guilty Tuesday.

"Do you think we are going to supply you with a translator all of your life?" the judge asked them.

The four, ranging in age from 17 to 22, were in a group that police said accosted two men on a street in May. The two said they were asked if they had marijuana, told to empty their pockets, struck on the head, threatened with a gun and told to stay off the block.

Attorneys for the men said they were studying the legality of the ruling and had not decided whether to appeal. One of the attorneys, Ferris Webby, suggested that the ruling was good for his client, Guzman-Mateo.

"My client is happy," Webby said. "I think it's going to help him."

The judge sentenced the four men to jail terms of four to 24 months. But he gave the three men, who already had served at least four months, immediate parole. Reyes-Rosario remains imprisoned on an unrelated drug charge.

Olszewski ordered the three to return with their parole officers in a year and take an English test. "If they don't pass, they're going in for the 24 (months)," he said.

Olszewski is known for outside-the-box sentencing.

He has ordered young defendants who are school dropouts to finish school. He often orders defendants to get full-time employment. But he also has his staff coordinate with an employment agency to help them find the jobs.

A latino advocate in the Hazleton, PA area has publicly stated that this sentence is a violation of the defendants civil rights and is going to the ACLU. The arguement is that English is not the "official" language of the United States and that no one should be forced to learn it.

At this point it sounds like the defendants are happy with the sentence but I need to do some further investigation.

Discuss....

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:12 pm

Good one....

I'm all for everyone having to learn the language, but.....And I'd have to actually research the legality of it, I can't imagine that this sentence is legal.

Post by **Lorelei** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:36 pm

Cail wrote:Good one....

I'm all for everyone having to learn the language, but.....And I'd have to actually research the legality of it, I can't imagine that this sentence is legal.

Can the ACLU have it overturned even if the defendants don't want it to be?

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:14 pm

The ACLU can petition a court to overturn it, sure.

Post by **Lorelei** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:42 pm

I guess the thing that disturbs me most is that the sentence, if followed through would likely open opportunities for these young men in the non criminal world...yet the sentence might be overturned due to legality. This is the kind of thing that made me avoid law as a career....it makes my brain want to explode.....

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:47 pm

Totally agree. It's a good sentence, and will certainly pay dividends to the accused in the long run.....But it's racist/classist/xenophobic, or some such poppycock.

Post by **[Syl]** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:25 pm

Hell, in my opinion, this is what judge's should do. It's not like they're being forced, and it's not like he just walked up to them on the street. No different than the stories I've heard of judges telling men to either enlist or go to prison.

Post by **Prebe** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:40 pm

Exactly, only learning english will probably give them an even better chance in life later on.

What I could have an issue with here is the fact that they remain free for a crime that would otherwise have cost jail time?

Since one of the alleged purposes of prison is to keep a criminal out of circulation untill he díes or learns his lesson, that purpose is clearly not fulfilled here.

Post by **Rawedge Rim** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:41 pm

Apparently it's not a "slam-dunk" that's the sentence is illegal, so on that point we'll have to wait and see.

Also I'm not to sure that the defendants want to go to jail for 2 years just so a Hispanic Activist and the ALCU can score points.

Cail, in what way is learning English racist, classist, or even Xenophobic. I don't care what your race, color, national origin, religion, sex, or whatever is, I just think if you want to live and work in the US, which is a primarily English speaking country, then it behooves you to learn the language, otherwise opportunities for advancement are quite limited.

Heck, if I decide to move to Spain, or Mexico, or Germany, or China, I expect to have to learn enough of the language to get by with when dealing with not only day to day business, but with the local goverment there. Why should immigrants get a free pass in America?

Post by **Lorelei** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:12 pm

Rawedge Rim wrote:Apparently it's not a "slam-dunk" that's the sentence is illegal, so on that point we'll have to wait and see.

Also I'm not to sure that the defendants want to go to jail for 2 years just so a Hispanic Activist and the ALCU can score points.

Cail, in what way is learning English racist, classist, or even Xenophobic. I don't care what your race, color, national origin, religion, sex, or whatever is, I just think if you want to live and work in the US, which is a primarily English speaking country, then it behooves you to learn the language, otherwise opportunities for advancement are quite limited.

Heck, if I decide to move to Spain, or Mexico, or Germany, or China, I expect to have to learn enough of the language to get by with when dealing with not only day to day business, but with the local goverment there. Why should immigrants get a free pass in America?

Spain, China and Germany all have official lanuages so they can be more forceful with people learning the language to get along.

Mexico, like the US, does not have an official language but spanish is the de facto official lanugage there just as english is our de facto official language. I do however dare anyone to go into Mexico and try to get by without speaking spanish. I wonder if Mexican courts provide spanish translators for americans?

I think Cail's racist, classist Xenophobe comment was laced with sarcasm, but he can address that later.

You are correct that it's not a slam dunk that it's illegal but there is a fair bit of local noise about it.

Post by **SoulBiter** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:14 pm

Lorelei wrote: I think Cail's racist, classist Xenophobe comment was laced with sarcasm, but he can address that later.

Yep.. you gotta catch Cails humor and sarcasm or you could go off the deep end only to find him laughing at you for missing his joke.

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:49 pm

Totally sarcastic, so.....(in my best Nelson impression).....

"Har, har!"

I'm sure that the "racist/classist/xenophobic" tactic will be used by both the ACLU and various Hispanic advocacy groups to vilify this judge.

Post by **The Dreaming** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:02 pm

The United States doesn't have an official language, but in order to be a part of mainstream society, you *really* need to know it. Having these men learn english will give them a place in proper society. Sending them to jail would likely just make another set of criminals. I am all for punishments that actually seek to force rehabilitation rather than recidivism. I am also sure these men would MUCH rather learn english than go to jail for 2 years. By protecting these men's civil rights we will just create some more criminals. Is it strictly legal? Probably not. Is it right? I certainly think it's a step in the right direction. Law is imperfect. In fact, law is horribly flawed and arbitrary. All power to a judge with the wisdom to see beyond law and see justice.

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:03 pm

The Dreaming wrote:The United States doesn't have an official language, but in order to be a part of mainstream society, you *really* need to know it. Having these men learn english will give them a place in proper society. Sending them to jail would likely just make another set of criminals. I am all for punishments that actually seek to force rehabilitation rather than recidivism. I am also sure these men would MUCH rather learn english than go to jail for 2 years. By protecting these men's civil rights we will just create some more criminals. Is it strictly legal? Probably not. Is it right? I certainly think it's a step in the right direction.

Much better put than the way I said it.

Post by **Prebe** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:08 pm

On second thought:

What if it had been two engslish speaking higshcool drop-outs that had been sentenced to get their high-school diploma instead of going to jail?

Would you be cool with that? I guess that you could REALLY save some jail-space.

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:10 pm

Yeah, I'd be really cool with that. That sort of creative sentencing ought to be used more often.

Post by **Prebe** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:17 pm

I thought I could recall that you didn't believe much in rehabilitation.

(I am not correcting my spelling of "English" above. It wasn't even on purpose

)

Post by **sgt.null** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:26 pm

the sentence is bs. send them to prison and let them learn english there. so what would this judge do if you do speak english but commit the same crime?

The four, ranging in age from 17 to 22, were in a group that police said accosted two men on a street in May. The two said they were asked if they had marijuana, told to empty their pockets, struck on the head, threatened with a gun and told to stay off the block.

these thugs assaulted two men, waved a gun around and the solution is to send them to remedial english?!?!?!?!

Post by **Cail** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:27 pm

What does that have to do with anything?

Post by **iQuestor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:29 pm

Cail wrote:Yeah, I'd be really cool with that. That sort of creative sentencing ought to be used more often.

Actually , I agree.

English should be our national language, and the defense that no one should be forced to learn it is BS -- well, you cant take a citizenship test without knowing it.

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Lucky Break or Violation of Civil Rights?

Lucky Break or Violation of Civil Rights?