What do Elohim want??

[deer of the dawn]

The Elohim are really abstruse to me. To illustrate my point, I used a really annoying, semi-obscure word. ("abstruse".) They are not very nice, after all.

But what exactly is their goal? They act like they are above the events concerning the Land, but then they can't help sticking their noses in after all, can they?

Their life is linked to the Land's, however much they act like they don't care. So why the act? And why warn the Ramen and the Stonedownors? And why so vague-- which Halfhand did they mean, and why make people have to figure it out??

[amanibhavam]

I guess this is mostly RAFO territory...

But I'd venture they are as selfish as the next guy - their goal is mostly self-preservation.

[Blackhawk]

I think the Elohim are the Creators Children who got trapped here and feel they are above all that happens but fear because they are trapped by time and their Fathers Arch enemy will find a way to make them his amusement park. I think they know the consequences of the arch of time breaking and dont want it to happen unless they can find a way out of the aftermath. but if im wrong then they are earthpower and want the Arch intact for eternity.

Ive showed amazing restraint not reading Fatal Revenant. I want to speculate some more.

[wayfriend]

Here's my interpretation of the Elohim.

The Elohim are all powerful beings of Earthpower. They are are capable of anything within the Earth. (Things outside of the Earth, however, are beyond them.)

They have chosen (or perhaps were made) to be the protectors of the Earth. This is what they use their power for. Their motivation is that the life of the Earth is their life, and if the Earth ends, so do they.

Perhaps it is arrogance, but they have withdrawn themselves from the Earth and remain reclusive. Anything less than a threat to the Earth itself does not interest them. They have chosen a life of reclusive contemplation, and only emerge onto the world's stage when things are dire. I say perhaps it is arrogance, because perhaps this is wisdom. For what life, what freedom, would all other beings have, if the Elohim chose to rule all things directly?

Thus, they struggle between non-involvement and need. Even when they are forced or required to act, they attempt to find an alternate solution that meets the need but limits their involvement, or obviates it altogether. Nor will they act at all if a threat to the Earth can be adequately met by some other force or party.

The result is something that can only be called selfish or self-centered by mere mortals.

Elohim were made to be this way. Perhaps the Creator made them this way. Or perhaps the means of their Creation dictated their character. Being superior to all else, no one has the means to change them. And they will not change themselves. Perhaps they cannot even if they chose to. It's possible that, being at the pinnacle of Creation, there's nothing that can be in a position to judge them, and so there's no point of view which can encompass an Elohim that is different than what they are.

[deer of the dawn]

I guess this is mostly RAFO territory...

ehh, er,... what's RAFO??

Wayfriend and Blackhawk, your responses are both intriguing.

Being superior to all else, no one has the means to change them. (Wayfriend)

So, why withdraw? What are they afraid of? I think there is one thing...

I think the Elohim are the Creators Children who got trapped here and feel they are above all that happens but fear because they are trapped by time and their Fathers Arch enemy will find a way to make them his amusement park. I think they know the consequences of the arch of time breaking and dont want it to happen unless they can find a way out of the aftermath. but if im wrong then they are earthpower and want the Arch intact for eternity. (Blackhawk)

If the Elohim do not remain apart from the Land, eventually Foul will start messing with them. Since they know that the Arch falls if Foul is obliterated entirely, they try to make for themselves a place apart from where they must inevitably deal with him in some way or another. They are trying to remain pure, and the only way to do that is to stay aloof. I guess I don't feel so put off, now. They're just avoiding confrontation.

[Sill]

So? What's the big deal about the arch being destroyed? Foul gets out, the Creator totally owns him again and this time does it right and controls Foul.

Foul getting out of the arch is like a 3rd grader getting ahold of Mike Tyson - Beat down...alright.

I'm just saying...

[dlbpharmd]

ehh, er,... what's RAFO??

Read And Find Out.

[Rigel]

So? What's the big deal about the arch being destroyed? Foul gets out, the Creator totally owns him again and this time does it right and controls Foul.

Foul getting out of the arch is like a 3rd grader getting ahold of Mike Tyson - Beat down...alright.

I'm just saying...

We don't know that for sure. There are no stories of direct confrontation between Foul and the Creator; the result could well be disastrous for both of them.

[Sill]

I know SRD's back ground in India probably provided a dualistic basis for the theological tension between the creator and Foul - but the fact is that Foul is a prisoner - not the creator. The creator has limited himself as an act of kindness ( if he didn't the beings he loves and values would die ) - Foul has no such scrupples and would break the arch in a NY second - but he cannot, not will not - there's the difference.

I know this is just a story - but clearly if it got ugly - the creator would stomp a mud hole in Foul. After all - didn't the creator cast Foul into his prison in his anger at having discovered what Foul had done? He'd do it again - that's where the smart money is today!

I'm just saying...

[dlbpharmd]

I agree with Rigel - to me, the Creator and Foul are equals. The Creator bested Foul once; there's no guarantee that would happen again, especially if Foul has the wild magic. It's clear from the end of WGW that Foul presumed that wild magic would give him a superior edge over the Creator.

[amanibhavam]

Nota bene we do not really know what the "real" or external nature of the Creator or Foul is. They appear to be multipotent and eternal beings from within the Land, but then again time moves differently in the Land's world and even people who are otherwise dead in their own world can go on living for millennia in there.
For all we know they might be forced to resolve their differences via fistfight in _their_ rightful word. Or tug-of-war, or shooting with waterguns.

[wayfriend]

We can't even be sure, really, if the Creator and Foul are distinct and seperate beings. Remember that the tale of the Creator includes:

"... Perhaps he found Despite itself beside him, misguiding his hand. Or perhaps he saw the harm in himself. It does not matter. He became outraged with grief and torn pride. In his fury he wrestled with Despite, either within him or without, and in his fury he cast the Despiser down, out of the infinity of the cosmos onto the Earth.

That certainly will bear on what kind of conflict will occur when Foul is released from his prison. It may be that the Creator will be reunited his own dark side. If it gets the upper hand ...

[amanibhavam]

Exactly. I think a lot of the readers tend to project an Ilúvatar-Melkor type of relationship onto the Chronicles (or a Jahveh - Lucifer one, for that matter). But for all we know, the relationship can be dualistic, they can be of equal stature, and the Creator just knew a better move when they were wrestling. Or, as you say, the relationship may be schizotic:)

[Sill]

Exactly. I think a lot of the readers tend to project an Ilúvatar-Melkor type of relationship onto the Chronicles (or a Jahveh - Lucifer one, for that matter). But for all we know, the relationship can be dualistic, they can be of equal stature, and the Creator just knew a better move when they were wrestling. Or, as you say, the relationship may be schizotic:)

That's exactly why I mentioned the dualistic possibility in my earlier post - but the balance is a little lop sided you must admit. Foul's been bound a prisoner just as you mentioned in the Iluvatar-Morgoth or Jehovah-Satan relationship. For being the creator's equal, Foul certainly has spent alot of time getting bested and laying on his back!

As Wayfriend suggested, it's possible Foul is the darkhalf and we have a "Me, Myself, and Irene" rather than warring gods.

Mazel...Good things!

[deer of the dawn]

Exactly. I think a lot of the readers tend to project an Ilúvatar-Melkor type of relationship onto the Chronicles (or a Jahveh - Lucifer one, for that matter). But for all we know, the relationship can be dualistic, they can be of equal stature, and the Creator just knew a better move when they were wrestling. Or, as you say, the relationship may be schizotic:)

I guess I presumed that because the Creator exists outside the Land (and the Arch???), whereas Foul is trapped inside, the Creator was superior to Foul.

What do you think?

[Ur Dead]

The Elohim are really clones of Paris Hilton in drag.

[ninjaboy]

I don't buy that the Elohim are the Creator's Children. That's just not on the cards. What we have to ask is why did SD need them in the book? What Role will they have to play in the possible distruction of the Land?

Same should be asked of the Insequent. SD wouldn't introduce characters when they aren't necessary..
Though they do piss me off.

As for the Creator / Foul issue.. The creator can't go through the Arch and interact with the Land and Foul can't leave the Land through the Arch. I think if Foul were as powerful as the Creator, he would've created somthing himself.. He isn't as powerful as the Creator and that may well be why he's so damn bitter.

[aliard]

This can be an interesting line of thought.

First of all, it has always been my impression that Foul and the creator are two sides of the same coin. The fact that the creator was able to "wall off" a portion of himself that way physically....well he is the CREATOR, of course he can:) Many people will mentally wall off certain portions of themselves all the time. Jerimiah is a perfect example of this (though extreme in the real world sense).

The elohim and the Insequent might also be considered two halves of the same coin. The Elohim represent power with no need of knowledge (they of course have knowledge, but it is not tied to their power) The Insequent are Power through the accumulation of Knowledge. Both sides have their good and bad. Both sides even help in the broader scope. Findall with the staff of law, and ...(shoot forget his name....the insequent that went with Berek...) and helped fashion the first staff of law by besting the guardian of the one tree (which happened to be an Elohim, more proof they were equal)

[spoonchicken]

Don't know what they "want", but I know what they "need"....a wild-magic powered Earthpower enema !

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I wonder what the Elohim could possibly be contemplating about so much...

...is there really that much still out there in this fantasy world we don't know about?

Cov=Foul=Creator