Kevin, why didn't he do it?

[shadowbinding shoe]

When Kevin decided to enact his ritual of desecration was he really that out of options? Sure things were tough but were they that tough?

When you can't handle a situation yourself, the solution (if you're not too proud to attempt it) is to ask for outside help. <mod deletion>, the Elohim, the sandgorgons to the east and probably a lot of others.

There was also the White-Gold-Option. Kevin had the stuff of law. He could have summoned the white-gold-wielder to help him out.

Instead he decided to fight it alone and desecrated his homeland for hundreds of years. Getting someone to help him could've been risky but was that risk on par with what his plan actually cost his Land?

[Mr. Broken]

" For he will save, or damn the land ..." Perhaps he thought risk of bringing about the second half of this prophecy to be too great.

[Ur Dead]

<mod deletion>

The Elohim don't care about Foul.
And if Kevin summoned a white Gold weilder, Foul in his mortal guise could have befriended the guy and surely it wouldn't be Thomas Covenant who was summoned.

[Fist and Faith]

Kevin didn't seem to know how to get white gold. Amok said, "In his last days, High Lord Kevin yearned for it in vain."

Kevin didn't try to get the Insequent to help because SRD had not conceived of the Insequent when he wrote the First Chrons.

The Elohim were mentioned in the First Chrons, but not too seriously. Could be SRD hadn't yet imagined them to be as powerful as they are. But Findail explained that they were not as willing to get involved in things after the Appointed merged with the One Forest, and became the Colossus. So if Kevin had been able to communicate with them, they likely would have turned him down anyway.

And the sandgorgons would not have been a particularly good alternative to Foul.

[Sill]

Karysen of the gyre?
More Giants?
Earthblood?
All the Haruchai?

[SGuilfoyle1966]

" For he will save, or damn the land ..." Perhaps he thought risk of bringing about the second half of this prophecy to be too great.

Yeah, he MIGHT damn the Land, so instead of taking that risk, I'll damn the Land myself.

Bright boy, that Kevin.

[Relayer]

White Gold was essentially a 'myth' and although the people of the Land 'believed' in it, they had no direct evidence. It may be that no one could have summoned white gold until Covenant was brought to the Land the first time, because they wouldn't have known who or where to focus. After the first time, Elena, Mhoram, Foamfollower, and Triock had someone to direct their energies towards.

[Lepus]

Are we really supposed to mention the

Spoiler

Insequent

in this forum?




---spoiler edit: no, danlo

[[Syl]]

Depends. Considering the word Insequent appears on the main index, that by itself isn't a big deal. But talking about them in any major way, especially plot details, is a no-no.

Damn, looks like I missed the first few posts of this thread.

[Lepus]

The last thing I do, when starting a book, is to look at the end-notes or glossary. But I broke that rule when I picked up Fatal this morning. I've been putting it off - afraid of disappointment, but by brother (jimoly) said OK.

So here I m on page 37.

You are right, Syl, nothing has really been given away. But I'm still not sure that even a mention of the Glossary of the third chrons belongs in this Forum.

But then I am a newbie - what do I know.

[Rocksister]

Kevin was thousands of years before the Lords that Covenant met on his first trip to the Land, right? So wouldn't that mean it would have been in a time in Covenant's life when he did not have the white gold ring yet? Apparently Covenant was THE white gold wielder; there are millions of people with white gold rings, have been for a very long time. So it appears that the time had to be right for Covenant because no one else could do it. He also had to experience the leprosy, the divorce, the shunning of society and lose everything he knew that made him feel part of the human race. It could only happen at the time that it DID happen. Kevin did not have that choice at the time of the RoD. Am I wrong here? So yea, maybe Kevin DID have other options, but not white gold. Just MHO.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Rocksister: Kevin made his ritual a thousand years before T.C. first comes to the land. That would make it 2.74 years earlier for Covenant. He wasn't diagnosed as leprous yet but he was married. So he had his white gold ring.

Anyway, is it really Covenant or no one? I thought the reason he became the 'white gold wielder' is because the Creator chose him from the unwashed masses of white gold ring owners. If a white gold wielder was needed earlier and Covenant was not suitable yet the Creator (aka the smelly old beggar) would have picked someone else.

[Relayer]

Good question. Would someone else have been able to do it? For example, what about someone else who was a doctor or healer, but was relatively well-adjusted (so I don't mean Ms. Avery here ). Or how about a shaman from a native culture, who already has a sense of the energy of the world? This person comes to the Land, understands the plight of the Land, goes to Foul's Creche with Kevin and some Haruchai, and using health-sense to guide control of the wild magic, eliminates Foul.

Obviously this would be a very different story, and is one which many other fantasy authors have written - one of the things that makes TCTC so great is that it isn't that type of story. And I believe that part of the reason SRD put Hile Troy in the story is to show that not just anyone could do it.

But is that really true? What if someone was summoned who said "beautiful place, nice people, great diamondraught... I have this ring that'll save it, let's go do it"? Would it have worked? This leads us to the fundamental question of SRD's storytelling: Is there something in the essence of the situation itself that required having an unbeliever, or is it only in the essence of the story that SRD wanted to tell?

[Caesar]

Isn't it true that white gold is a paradox? An alloy (not a pure metal), yet also the source of the most pure power that exists in the world of the Land? Something like that, IIRC.

Anyway, the user of the white gold would also have to be a paradox in order to be the most effective user of the white gold. TC is a paradox: he is the Unbeliever, yet his soul wants to believe in the Land something fierce. He wants to be "good", yet he has the capacity for ultimate "evil": he will save or damn the Land.

While LA can use the white gold, mainly due to her health-sense, she is not so paradoxical (IMO) and so she can't master the white gold like TC can, especially since TC is the white gold.

I won't discuss the Last Chrons here, of course, but there may be implications there.

I suspect that the Creator (and SRD) knew this when they "chose" TC for the job. Anyone else who came to the Land and accepted it at face value would simply have been unable to use the white gold with enough passion to defeat LF. Yes, I know TC needed the Illearth Stone to trigger the white gold in TPTP, but eventually he did learn how to call the wild magic himself.

Kevin may have wanted to use the white gold, but he would have been unable to use it as well. His paradox quotient it nearly null: Kevin is just a poor midguided fool. Nothing else.

LF may have known all of this as well, but he probably figured that a pariah like TC would feel the way that LF feels, eventually: F**k everyone and let the Land die, right? Serves 'em right!

So, in summary, I think that even if Kevin did manage to call a white ring bearer, he could never have called the right person. Thomas Covenant, and don't you forget it. Just kidding

[Blackhawk]

Kevin was thousands of years before the Lords that Covenant met on his first trip to the Land, right? So wouldn't that mean it would have been in a time in Covenant's life when he did not have the white gold ring yet? Apparently Covenant was THE white gold wielder; there are millions of people with white gold rings, have been for a very long time. So it appears that the time had to be right for Covenant because no one else could do it. He also had to experience the leprosy, the divorce, the shunning of society and lose everything he knew that made him feel part of the human race. It could only happen at the time that it DID happen. Kevin did not have that choice at the time of the RoD. Am I wrong here? So yea, maybe Kevin DID have other options, but not white gold. Just MHO.

according to the timeline 3000 years went by in the land when 10 years went by for TC.. I think that 1000 years went by since kevins desecration,Shadowbinding Shoe is right so TC would be 3.3 years away from coming to the land during the desecration,. and i beleive you are right, TC had to experience before he could conquer, and kevin was no more powerfull than Elena..but she had the creator to help her summon TC, and the creator may not have found anyone with the experience or combination of metals strong enough during Kevins need...thats why he wanted in vain for the white gold, better to let Kevin suffer and desecrate than to let someone who will ensure the breaking of the arch. after all picking a WGW to beat foul..as TC liked saying .."its not that easy"

[shadowbinding shoe]

Thinking back, maybe it's the Despiser himself who was the deciding factor in this. When he was cast into the Land by the Creator and trapped in the Arch of Time he must have become attached to the arch somehow. If he didn't want the WGW to be summoned maybe he couldn't have been summoned. All of the summoning occurred with his approval.

Anyway old Kevin could have looked for other sources within the Land for help. Covenant is the heavy guns but there are many wonders under the Land's sun and we don't hear about any missions during his time to call them for aid. Maybe it's true that he wanted to desecrate things because of the bad things that happened to him personally (A Jeroth won his trust and made him sacrifice his friends at mount Thunder)

[dlbpharmd]

kevin was no more powerfull than Elena..

Kevin was much more powerful than Elena every dreamed of being.

[Blackhawk]

Thinking back, maybe it's the Despiser himself who was the deciding factor in this. When he was cast into the Land by the Creator and trapped in the Arch of Time he must have become attached to the arch somehow. If he didn't want the WGW to be summoned maybe he couldn't have been summoned. All of the summoning occurred with his approval.

Anyway old Kevin could have looked for other sources within the Land for help. Covenant is the heavy guns but there are many wonders under the Land's sun and we don't hear about any missions during his time to call them for aid. Maybe it's true that he wanted to desecrate things because of the bad things that happened to him personally (A Jeroth won his trust and made him sacrifice his friends at mount Thunder)

I think anything in the land can easily be manipulated by foul..the most potent wonder of all was earthblood..the ability to command the earth to wake the worm of worlds end if ordered, all the other powers would have just been slight annoyances to foul since they were bound by the law of the Arch also, white gold was the only thing foul could not control and make his own tool until freely given to him. even the Elohim would eventually become playthings had they tried to go against him. but for every Evil bane there should be a bane of Good, though any tool as the haruchai have so stubornly but correctly said can be used against the wielder good or evil. TC used fouls own Illearth stone against him when he used it as a trigger. i bet foul wished he had just stuck to strong arm tactics

[Damack]

" For he will save, or damn the land ..." Perhaps he thought risk of bringing about the second half of this prophecy to be too great.

Yeah, he MIGHT damn the Land, so instead of taking that risk, I'll damn the Land myself.

Bright boy, that Kevin.

Well, in Kevin's defense, he had hoped the Ritual was going to kill Foul as well. Also, he kind of knew what was going to happen to the Land so he saved/hid his Seven Wards for the time others could discover them in the aftermath.

Kevin is just a tragic tale all around. No wonder his spirit is in such agony. I would rather condemn Elena rather than Kevin as who's the bigger fool in retrospect.

And as for the other who wrote that Elena was just as powerful as Kevin, I disagree. The fact that in Elena's time they're actually trying to learn Kevin's Wards proves that even as High Lord Elena doesn't have as much power/lore as Kevin did.

[Valion]

As someone mentioned, no, Kevin had no other options. Nothing in the land or the world can stop Foul. That's the whole point of why he despaired. Once he understood the full nature of who and what Lord Foul was, he knew everything was screwed. I can't remember if it was ever mentioned what Kevin did to fight Lord Foul, but regardless of whether their were wars with armies or high falutin' magical showdowns, Kevin would have lost at every turn and despaired. The only thing left would have been the Ritual.

(the elohim as earthpower in person can't stop Foul. They are hard to understand but since they are earthpower I wonder if Foul (since he came from outside the word) is completely outside their sphere of influence and they just can't really involve him in their thought processes. They always piss me off because they get in everyone's way when people are trying to stop Foul. But, all they do, is try and protect the world at all costs. They know the One Tree mission is folly because the worm might wake up and destroy the world. They worry about wild magic because it might break the arch and destroy the world. But they have blinders on when it comes to Foul. He just doesn't register on their radar since a. he can't destroy the world on his own (just mess it up) b. he and his power doesn't come from earthpower so they don't understand him at all. He is totally foreign to them.)