Moderators: lucimay, Onos T'oolan
Why the hell did they make this First Throne??? Seems like a really bad idea to me."Logros commanded that the First Throne be reomved from this land, because the Nameless Ones were drawing ever closer to discovering its location. They had come to realize that its power could be claimed, that the T'lan Imass could be made to bow in service to the first mortal to seat him or herself upon it."
Well that's just great!! Thanks for ruining it! No need to read any more Malazan books now, is there!!!!Murrin wrote:Didn't the last person who tried to sit on that throneSpoiler
wind up with a fist-shaped hole in his skull?
Thank you for noticing!!!aliantha wrote:Poor Fisty, you're being ignored....
Well, it's not exactly clear, but I don't think they made it until after the Vow. At least as of HoC. Here's Febryl, explaining the Whirlwind goddess and the history of Raraku to Kamist Reloe:aliantha wrote:Re the First Throne: did a T'lan Imass (or whoever went before them) ever sit on the First Throne? It's reasonable to think that they made the throne for themselves, before the vow, and *then* realized after the vow that a human could exploit them through it.
It's clearly not clear, but I interpret that as saying they built the Throne after they were undead, expecting to put a mortal descendant on it. But yeah, maybe they built it before the ritual, and didn't need to hide it until the Nameless Ones became aware of how it could be used."The goddess was a spirit, once-"
"That is no secret."
"Perhaps, but what kind of spirit? One that rides the desert winds, you might think. But you are wrong. A spirit of stone? Sand? No, none of these." He waved one hand. "Look about you. Raraku holds the bones of countless civilizations, leading back to the First Empire, the empire of Dessimbelackis. And still further - aye, the signs of that are mostly obliterated, yet some remain, if one has the eyes to see...and understand." He limped over to one of the low stones ringing the clearing, struggling to hide the wince of pain from his overworked bones. "Were you to dig down through this sand, Kamist Reloe, you would discover that these boulders are in fact menhirs, stones standing taller than any of us here. And their flanks are pitted and grooved in strange patterns..."
Kamist swung in a slow circle, studying the protruding rocks with narrowed eyes. "T'lan Imass?"
Febryl nodded. "The First Empire of Dessimbelackis, Kamist Reloe, was not the first. That belonged to the T'lan Imass. There was little, it is true, that you or I might recognize as being...imperial. No cities. No breaking of the ground to plant crops or irrigate. And its armies were undead. There was a throne, of course, upon which was meant to sit a mortal - the progeny race of the T'lan Imass. A human. Alas, humans viewed empire...differently. And their vision did not include T'lan Imass. Thus, betrayal. Then war. An unequal contest, but the T'lan Imass were reluctant to annihilate their mortal children. And so they left-"
It's impossible for me to guess what Rake ever has in mind or wants. Hell, Korlat couldn't do anything more than guess. Still, he was already a match for... well, anybody. If he'd sat on the Throne of Shadow, adding the power than Kellanved later took to his [Rake's] own, he could have done some serious @#$%!!! An Eleint Soletaken Tiste Andi, Son of Darkness, Knight of High House Dark, wielder of Dragnipur, and ruler of the Shadow Realm????aliantha wrote:As for the Throne of Shadow, doesn't Rake already have a position in the Deck? Not to say that ascendants can't change jobs, as it were...but I would assume that there's something about sitting a throne that doesn't interest Rake.
Well, they discuss why he didn't go for control of the Shadow Realm by sitting on the Throne. He wanted to keep it a secret for as long as he could. But after every damned thief in Darujhistan had learned about it, I'd think he'd have sat on it to solidify his power. *shrug*aliantha wrote:Now why Kellanved didn't go after it directly, I dunno -- unless, by definition, the Shadow Throne is supposed to be kept in, y'know, shadow.
OK, Shadowthrone never sat on the throne Darist was guarding. Doing so would have ensured that no-one else could have claimed its power - that is, become the highest power in the Warren of Shadow and King of High House Shadow - as long as he lived. But he didn't do it because, presumably, he didn't have the courage and/or unassailable power to defend himself if others wanted it badly enough to try to kill him. So he became the highest power in the Warren of Shadow, and took the position of King of High House Shadow, through other means. (Although I haven't heard specifically what those other means were.) Right?"What about protecting the Throne?"
"There are demons from Shadow on the island now. Your patron god has clearly decided to take a more active role in defending the secret."
"Your patron god." Thank you for that, Apsalar. And who was it who held your soul cupped in his two hands? A killer's hands. "Why not just take it back to the Shadow Realm?"
"No doubt if he could, he would," she replied. "But when Anomander Rake placed his kin here to guard it, he also wrought sorcery around the Throne. It will not be moved."
Cutter shipped the oars and began preparing the sail. "Then Shadowthrone need only come here and plant his scrawny arse on it, right?"
He disliked her answering smile. "Thus ensuring that no-one else could claim its power, or the position of King of High House Shadow. Unless, of course, they killed Shadowthrone first. A god of courage and unassailable power might well plant his scrawny arse on that throne to end the argument once and for all. But Shadowthrone did just that, once before, as Emperor Kellanved."
"He did?"
"The claimed the First Throne. The throne of the T'lan Imass."
Oh.
"Fortunately," Apsalar continued, "as Shadowthrone, he has shown little interest in making use of his role as Emperor of the T'lan Imass."
"Well, why bother? This way, he negates the chance of anyone else finding and taking that throne, while his avoidance of using it himself ensures that no-one takes notice he has it in the first place - gods, I'm starting to sound like Kruppe! In any case, that seems clever, not cowardly."
She studied him for a long moment. "I had not thought of that. You are right, of course. Unveiling the power invites convergence, after all. It seems Shadowthrone has absorbed well his early residence in the Deadhouse. More so, perhaps, than Cotillion has."
"Aye, it's an Azath tactic, isn't it? Negation serves to disarm. Given the chance, he'd probably plant himself in every throne in sight, then, with all the power accrued to him, he would do nothing with it. Nothing at all."
Her eyes slowly widened.
He frowned at her expression. The his heart started pounding hard. No. I was only kidding. That's not just ambitious, it's insane. He could never pull it off...but what if he did? "All the games of the gods..."
"Would be seriously...curtailed. Crokus, have you stumbled onto the truth? Have you just articulated Shadowthrone's vast scheme? His prodigious gambit to achieve absolute domination?"
So he had to have, uh, advertised that he was now a god - the God of Shadow. He wouldn't be a god without worshippers. But that would draw the attention he wanted to avoid. Other gods and ascendants know he did it, and could go kill him if they wanted. And yet, they don't even have to, because they can simply sit their scrawny arse on the throne, supplanting Shadowthrone. Doesn't matter how he took the power and position, someone else who sits on the throne would simply take it away from him."All right, we'll start with this. Ascendants who find worshippers become gods, and that binding goes both ways. Ascendants without worshippers are, in a sense, unchained. Unaligned, in the language of the Deck of Dragons. Now, gods who once had worshippers but don't have them any more are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed. For the Elder Gods, that means the spilling of blood on hallowed or once-hallowed ground. For the more primitive spirits and the like, it could be as simple as the recollection of rediscovery of their name, or some other form of awakening. Mind you, none of that matters if the ascendant in question has been well and truly annihilated.
"So, to backtrack slightly, ascendants, whether gods or not, seem to possess some form of power. Maybe sorcery, maybe personality, maybe something else. And what that seems to mean is, they possess an unusual degree of efficacy-"
In which case, he should now, as the Fonz would say, sit on it. No powerhouses are after it, or they would have tried to kill him and/or sat on the throne by now. (It's been long enough for a second Chaining, and some other stuff, so I guess there's been time.) The Edur want it back, but no big deal, really. They couldn't fight their way through Darist and the Rope. Goes a long way toward explaining how K'rul came back. Now how do we get blood spilled for Bugg?Now, gods who once had worshippers but don't have them any more are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed. For the Elder Gods, that means the spilling of blood on hallowed or once-hallowed ground.
Niiiice!aliantha wrote:I think the Edur could, in fact, fight their way through Darist and the Rope. All they have to do is send Rhulad and a diversionary squad. The troops can keep fighting while they wait for Rhulad to keep resurrecting. And then the Crippled God has a puppet on the Shadow Throne. Aieee....
Looks to me like he's back anyway. He's laying pretty low, but he sure got some stuff done.aliantha wrote:Another point from your quote from Paran in BH:Goes a long way toward explaining how K'rul came back. Now how do we get blood spilled for Bugg?Now, gods who once had worshippers but don't have them any more are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed. For the Elder Gods, that means the spilling of blood on hallowed or once-hallowed ground.
I dunno. To some extent I agree that the edur weren't putting THAT much into taking the throne besides raw manpower (just one edur warlock? I remember 4 being used to sink the malazan fleet) but the problem with rhulad is that he was already their trump card for taking over Letheras. Sure, he could have taken over the shadow realm but unless ALL the edur went with him on the voyage, the ones that were left in letheras would have been far from safe.I think the Edur could, in fact, fight their way through Darist and the Rope. All they have to do is send Rhulad and a diversionary squad. The troops can keep fighting while they wait for Rhulad to keep resurrecting. And then the Crippled God has a puppet on the Shadow Throne. Aieee....
Perhaps the issue here is a matter of perception. A new god, yes, but not exactly a new power; in fact, his takeover was muddled up with the fall of the rashan cult. So in terms of public appearances he was just the newest contender in the confused and muddled struggles in dark/shadow aspected warrens. (I'm really not sure about whether rashan is a dark warren or a shadow warren or a mix of them) How obvious was his hold on the throne of shadows? Maybe no one knew about it? Since shadowthrone just inherited an existing cult, he was just a "new boss same as the old boss" kinda god, in the public view.So he had to have, uh, advertised that he was now a god - the God of Shadow. He wouldn't be a god without worshippers. But that would draw the attention he wanted to avoid. Other gods and ascendants know he did it, and could go kill him if they wanted. And yet, they don't even have to, because they can simply sit their scrawny arse on the throne, supplanting Shadowthrone. Doesn't matter how he took the power and position, someone else who sits on the throne would simply take it away from him.
I'm not sure what this implies. I wonder why nobody did it earlier. Could it be that nobody knew how? Or that nobody who knew how wanted to? Surely somebody knew either how to reawaken it or where to find the Throne of Shadow!"The Crippled God has fashioned a new House and now seeks to join it to the Deck of Dragons. A sanction is required. A blessing, if you will. Or, conversely, a denial."
Whiskeyjack grunted. "What of the House of Shadow, then? Was there a Master of the Deck around who sanctioned its joining?"
"There was no need. The House of Shadow always existed, more or less. Shadowthrone and Cotillion simply reawakened it."
If you're willing to invest (I don't think it's been released in US yet), Night of Knives explains this a bit. It's a short'ish novel by Ian Cameron Esselmont which shows Kellanved and Dancer's "return" to malaz island and some of what went on with the takeover.Onos T'oolan wrote:Anomandaris and Whiskeyjack, in MoI:I'm not sure what this implies. I wonder why nobody did it earlier. Could it be that nobody knew how? Or that nobody who knew how wanted to? Surely somebody knew either how to reawaken it or where to find the Throne of Shadow!"The Crippled God has fashioned a new House and now seeks to join it to the Deck of Dragons. A sanction is required. A blessing, if you will. Or, conversely, a denial."
Whiskeyjack grunted. "What of the House of Shadow, then? Was there a Master of the Deck around who sanctioned its joining?"
"There was no need. The House of Shadow always existed, more or less. Shadowthrone and Cotillion simply reawakened it."
