Blu-ray players

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:13 pm

Has anyone taken the plunge yet? PS3? A standalone?

The new Rush concert disc is coming out next month, on Blu-Ray, so I'll have to bite the bullet and get a player. There seem to be several in the sub-$300 range, but not exactly what I need.

Along with hi-def video, BR also offers hi-def surround sound, much better than the Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS. It offers lossless versions of these two, which is pretty much theater-quality (depending on your speakers, receiver, etc.).

However, there's a catch. The Holy Grail of HD connectors that passes all this beauty (audio and video) over one wire is the HDMI connector. Fine if you have a new TV (I do). But not so fine if you have an older receiver and want to hear the hi-res sound (I do) . There is a work-around, however, but it's a tad bit more expensive. My Kenwood receiver (2001 model, DD5.1, DTS, etc.) has analog inputs in the back for each separate channel, allowing me to listen to hi-res sound like SACD. There are a few BR players that have this analog audio-outputs, but not something as convenient as the PS3. And they are a bit more pricey given the extra hardware. About $400 is the cheapest one, from Panasonic. Brand new technology.

I'm really, REALLY hoping prices will come down for the holiday season. If I can pick this up for a super-bargain--say $250--it's a done deal. Nothing will be viewed on my TV except Rush for about 3 months.

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:18 pm

The top-rated Blu-Ray player is still the PS3, believe it or not. This player looks like it comes close though.

I'm leaning towards the PS3 for the additional ability of game play for my daughter and her friends. I'll never use it for that, but at least I'm killing two birds with one stone.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:23 pm

Malik, I didn't know you were THAT big of a Rush Limbaugh fan...

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:27 pm

rimshot

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:27 pm

The PS3 *is* the top-rated player right now. I agree. It's an amazing machine, and that's why I mentioned it a couple times. Unfortunately, though it *does* internally decode the hi-res audio codecs (some of the first standalone BR units did not), it passes that audio info via the HDMI. So it's useless to me without a new receiver. And then at that point, I'm in for a grand. Can't do it. Not with 2 birthdays and Christmas coming up. Oh and I need a new hometheater couch, too.

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:30 pm

True, but there is an optical out. Does your receiver have that?

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:32 pm

Cail, I followed your link. CNET is great!

The Pany BD 35 is a fine player. 2.0 HDMI profile--which is fantastic. It means that you can hook your player up to the Internet (ethernet cable) and get firmware upgrades automatically, and online content for individual discs. And probably other stuff they think of later. But with a rapidly evolving standard, the firmware upgrades alone are a thing of beauty. No longer having to burn upgrade CDs for your players. Nice.

However, the one I've been looking at is virtually an identical model, the Pany BD55, which includes the 7.1 analog audio outputs I mentioned. Unfortunately, it's $400, instead of the $300 for the BD35. Maybe you have a new receiver, and don't have to worry about it. Or don't care about the hi-res sound.

Do you have one yet?

[Edit: optical out is digital only. I need analog outputs since my receiver doesn't decode those codecs internally.]

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:38 pm

I've got a Sony ES receiver that's from 2002 or so, so I also have no HDMI input on it. But I do have optical in ports which will carry the digital signal. Odd that your receiver doesn't support the optical input, I thought that'd been around for a while.

I've been patiently waiting on Blu-Ray, but I think that I'll probably switch everything over this winter. I don't have a huge DVD library (maybe 100 titles), but at this point it's worth buying new titles on the better format.

I'll end up with a PS3 in the family room with the 50" TV, and probably the BD35 in the bedroom with the 32".

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:58 pm

Cail wrote:I've got a Sony ES receiver that's from 2002 or so, so I also have no HDMI input on it. But I do have optical in ports which will carry the digital signal. Odd that your receiver doesn't support the optical input, I thought that'd been around for a while.

I added a quick edit, but I guess you were posting. The digital signal won't pass the hi-resolution surround sound, unless it is through the HDMI (I believe for copy-protection reasons, for one thing). The optical will only transfer the current lossy standard DD5.1 and DTS. I need the unit to decode the newer, higher standards internally, and then pass them analog. Though I have optical inputs on my receiver (it was about $400 model in 2001), they won't work with this new technology. Got to have a "pure" analog signal running straight to the receiver already decoded from the digital source (since that's what the speakers output at their level, pure analog sound).

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:22 pm

Ahhh, gotcha.

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:45 pm

I have the PS3. No complaints on the blueray end (as far as the games go, though, I'm rather disappointed), though I don't have much invested in it as far as audio goes. Hooked up to an Onkyo 5.1 receiver via the optical out (no HDMI inputs, and considering there's only 1 on the TV, I can't tell you how much of a pain in the ass that is, since I'm not paying $100+ for an HDMI switch). The sound is crisp and clean (and f'ing loud compared to other sources like digital cable), but I'm not much of an audiophile.

Another thing in the PS3's favor is the 40g hard drive and wireless capability. I can transfer files over my home network and use the PS3 as a media hub, though the transfer rate is abysmal for some reason and converting video to the required MP4 format not only adds more time but seems to also limit options to stereo surround.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:17 pm

Malik23 wrote:I added a quick edit, but I guess you were posting. The digital signal won't pass the hi-resolution surround sound, unless it is through the HDMI (I believe for copy-protection reasons, for one thing). The optical will only transfer the current lossy standard DD5.1 and DTS. I need the unit to decode the newer, higher standards internally, and then pass them analog. Though I have optical inputs on my receiver (it was about $400 model in 2001), they won't work with this new technology. Got to have a "pure" analog signal running straight to the receiver already decoded from the digital source (since that's what the speakers output at their level, pure analog sound).

This is probably a dumb question, but can you use your digital HDTV (with HDMI) as a pass-through to take the HDMI signal from the new player and connect it analog to the receiver? You would always need the TV on to watch BluRay anyway, right?

dw

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:35 pm

Brother, I'm not sure what that would accomplish. Here are my options right now:
1. Connect the BR player with one HDMI cable straight to the TV, and get stunning picture but crappy sound out of my TV. Running a connection from the TV to the receiver from this point (it would have to be the simple analog RCA stereo jacks) would at best give me a degraded stereo mix. No surround, not even crappy surround, unless I used my receiver to generate a fake "5.1" that is even worse than current DVDs using DD5.1 or DTS.

2. Connect the BR player to the TV with HDMI for video only, and connect to the receiver using either A) optical out, B) digital coax, C) 5.1 analog inputs. Options A and B can transfer current digital formats (Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS), but not the newest Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, their Blu-ray replacements.

So I can get decent sound out of a PS3 or the BD35, but it will barely be better (if at all) than current DVDs . . . which seems like a waste of technology to me to only get 1/2 of the upgrade advantage of Blu-ray in the first place. I'd rather just wait instead of eliminate 1/2 of the equation from the start. Or I can go with a player that offers option C.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:43 pm

I warned you it was probably a dumb question.

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:54 pm

Just to throw my take in here...

I honestly don't know how much better the TrueHD is. I can't imagine that it's that much better. I will say that I hate listening to music in any surround mode, and always configure my receiver to play music DVDs through the front speakers and sub only.

I'm loathe to think about replacing my receiver just because I like it so much and I don't have $1,200 burning a hole in my pocket to replace it with this mother sucker.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:59 pm

Do either of you make use of the typical Sony receiver feature which actually has switched A/B front speakers, so you can have a set of speakers for music only, and a set for A/V stuff?
I had a switched setup briefly, until I decided to put the music-focused system upstairs (which was precipitated when we got a new Sony A/V receiver for the TV/DVD system

)

dw

Post by **Cail** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:25 pm

Nope. I've got a pair of Klipsch KG 5.5s up front that just kick massive ass no matter what's going through them. I've toyed around with getting new speakers, but I have yet to find anything that's remotely comparable.

I don't know how the newer Klipsch stuff sounds, but I don't think you can find better sounding speakers for either music or video listening at any price.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:59 pm

I've heard good sounds coming from a buddy's Klipsch speaker set.

Our downstairs system currently consists of a matched set of three Sony speakers (2 tower fronts and a center channel) with a Sony powered sub. It sounds great - especially with the sub - the ultimate test of which is the scene in FOTR where Gandalf confronts the Balrog.
This Christmas, we are hoping to get a BluRay player and a pair of Sony speakers to use as matched surrounds, along with a wireless transmitter to prevent slapstick tripping hazards. Along with our brand new Samsung 46" 120Hz ToC LCD HDTV, our A/V victory will be complete - we'll never have to leave home again.

Our upstairs (mostly music) system has a matched set of three DCM speakers (two bookshelfs and a center channel). I love my DCM speakers, but I am now spoiled by the deep bass I get on the downstairs system...

So, Malik, I'm watching this thread with interest, since with any luck I'll also be in the market for a BluRay player.

Post by **Zarathustra** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:06 pm

Cail, I know what you mean about most surround. Usually, like with a DVD concert, the PCM stereo mix is going to be superior, especially in speakers like yours where you can tell the difference. That's because stereo PCM is a much higher bit rate than the lossy (i.e. compressed) DD 5.1. So unless the surround mix is really special, I usually forego it for the stereo.

However, it is precisely this issue of compression (used to fit multichannel info in a smaller space) that will be eliminated by the TrueHD. That's why it's "lossless." No information is lost due to compression. So imagine it sounding as good from your two mains as from everywhere else. If you have decent satellites, and a good sub, this really should be no problem.

And if you've relied upon fake surround before (Dolby Pro Logic II, for example), no wonder you prefer stereo! That's even worse than true 5.1 channel separation, because "matrixed" soundfield is created artificially into non-discrete channels from a stereo source.

If your mains are orders of magnitude better than you center and satellites, I can see why you'd even listen to DVDs this way. Unless the center channel is perfectly timbre-matched with the mains (same tweeters, same drivers, etc.) then there will be a noticeable difference for dialog moving around the front soundstage. A "phantom" center (created by just using the mains) can sound a lot better . . . as long as you're sitting in the middle sweet spot.

My center is my weak speaker right now. I turn it off about half the time.

[Edit: I forgot to mention, this issue of hi-res surround music has already been at play for 6 so years now with SACD and DVD-A. If you don't have a player that can do these formats, then that's another reason why you may have found multi-channel music disappointing. These are the only two formats that have played it in its full resolution so far. I have a couple (Yes, Pink Floyd, ELP, etc.) that sound amazing. Most people truly never heard anything like it . . . especially Dark Side of the Moon.]

Post by **Brother Charn** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:23 pm

What is the diff between DVD-A and an optic coming from a disc player headed to the receiver?

When re-connecting our system to include the HDTV, I just assumed that the optic cable was the best thing to use when connecting our (std-def) DVD player audio to the receiver... did I goof?

dw

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