Kastenessen's curse on Findail

[deer of the dawn]

In The One Tree, Findail tells the tale of Kastenessen's Appointment and how he rebelled. When he was caught, Findail relates,

"To me especially he gave curses, promising a doom which would surpass all his dismay-- for I had been nearer to him among the Elohim than any other, and I would not hear him."

I am wondering if this means some doom upon the second Staff of Law which will be fulfilled in the Last Chronicles, or if perhaps the doom was fulfilled in Findail's becoming part of the Staff. It doesn't seem "doomish" enough, but then for an Elohim to be restricted in any way may have seemed a fate worse than death.

What do you think?

[wayfriend]

I think it has been fulfilled.

"Doom" doesn't necessarilly mean a calamity; it need merely mean only "fate". So I think that Findail's becoming the Staff of Law qualifies as a Doom.

Also, I cannot for the life of me see Findail entering the story again. So I cannot see anything else happening to him.

At least, that he would be aware of. I suppose should the new Staff of Law end up being used to prop open an outhouse door in a cavewight town somewhere, and occassionally used to prod some offending mass further down the hole, Kastenessen would get a chuckle. But Findail would not really be aware of it.

[Rocksister]

Wow, great question. I never even thought of Findail not really being "gone" for good. This is a whole new path of thinking. Could he and Vain be separated, and the Staff be unmade? If the Elohim are Earthpower, can the Staff really contain Findail? Interesting indeed. I'm trying to read a non-SRD book right now and just can't get into it; discussions like this one might make me pull LFB back out of the pile and start the series all over again. You guys all see and think of things that never cross my mind. I'm humbled by all of you.

[matrixman]

The Elohim may be Earthpower incarnate, but the wild magic is still one level higher. And Linden's use of the wild magic to "bond" Findail and Vain together seemed pretty permanent to me. So I agree with Wayfriend and others who think Findail has irrevocably lost any individual identity that we would recognize as "Findail."

[Borillar]

We also have evidence that the personality of the Elohim can be lost in such a merger, a.k.a. the Colossus of the Fall.

[[Syl]]

I agree, MM. Findail said, "...I speak of the Appointed. Of those who have gone before me, passing out of name and choice and time for the sake of the frangible Earth." It sounds like, for all intents and purposes, 'Findail' is no more.

Spoiler

Which is kind of the strange thing about Kastenessen. I mean, his whole idea is to slip the Durance, right? The bigger question, to me, isn't how he's doing it, but how there's anything left of 'Kastenessen' to do it. I mean, it wasn't even the Elohim that bound the Appointed to the Colossus (in which case, how exactly was she 'appointed'?), but she didn't come back. Perhaps because Kastenessen didn't resign himself to his fate?

[danlo]

Spoiler

I highly doubt he did

[wayfriend]

Spoiler

The GI says: First, the Elohim who was bound into the Colossus wasn't Appointed: her binding was the will of the forest(s), not of her people. I'm not prepared to commit myself about her; but I'm inclined to think that she may have been able to slip free when the "will of wood" became too weak to hold her. (03/07/2007)

[High Lord Tolkien]

Why the Spoilers?
Jay finally finished and he was the last.

[wayfriend]

(Cuz this is the 2nd Chrons Forum.)

[deer of the dawn]

I started posting this in the Last Chrons forum, but changed my mind. For me the big Q is whether Kastenessen's curse will extend to the Staff of Law (for anyone done with 2nd Chrons there are no spoilers there), or if the curse was fulfilled in Findail becoming part of the Staff.

It didn't cross my mind that the Staff could be unmade and Findail freed, but who knows!

I realize that "doom" means fate and is not necessarily negative, but "curse" is definitely negative, so I'm not sure becoming the Staff was "cursish" enough, I guess. Maybe Kastenessen didn't really know what would happen-- after all, it was Linden's doing, not his, to bind Findail and Vain.

[wayfriend]

Donaldson portrayed in no small way Findail's dismay at the prospect of becoming part of a Staff of Law. So it seems to me that Kastenessen's prophesy -- "a doom which would surpass all his dismay" -- has come true.

This doesn't, can't, mean that there's nothing else possible...

[Unfettered One]

Spoiler

Isn't the SOL black now, which would have been Vain's part? Perhaps Findail has already slipped out during the battle under MS, but we don't know it yet.

[danlo]

Spoiler

Interesting idea but I think you need to move to the Fatal Revenant forum or Dissecting the Land (we just covered that chapter) for that one.

[AjK]

I feel that Findail's binding with Vain is permanent in the sense that they will no longer exist as individuals regardless of what happens to the staff. Given how distraught Findail looked and sounded throughout TOT and WGW I think that this is what he feared his doom would be. Btw, very nice discussion subject, DotD!

[deer of the dawn]

Findail actually mentions the curse and his doom a couple more times as they go into Mount Thunder. Therefore I would have to conclude that being bound to Vain is the fulfillment.

However, judging by Kastenessen's breaking free, and SRD's not being "willing to commit" on whether the Colossus Elohim was free-- we could be seeing more of Findail!

[AjK]

However, judging by Kastenessen's breaking free, and SRD's not being "willing to commit" on whether the Colossus Elohim was free-- we could be seeing more of Findail!

Valid thought, but a distinction here for me is that in my mind Vain "has him" and seems to have the power to hang on to him. Just like Findail coundn't get out of Vain's grip in WGW I think something would have to happen to Vain in order to allow Findail to get back out of the staff as it were. I say this because I am assuming that if Findail is still (to some degree) a separate sentient entity while part of the staff then Vain could be as well ... and determined to keep Findail in there. Just my 2 cents...

Andy

[matrixman]

SRD had an interesting take on the subject:

Scott: Mr Donaldson

Kastenessen (with Foul's help) was able to break free of his Appointment. I am curious, are other Appointed aware? For example, the Colossus of the Fall? Or Findail - is he still self-aware, potentially able to break out of the new Staff of Law if he so chose, or is he permanently merged with Vain due to the influence of white gold/wild magic? To what extent does being Appointed negate one's identity and existence-completely? Or is being forever aware of oneself and the cost of the task part of the Appointment?

In my view, "being forever aware" is not a necessary quality of Appointment. Remember, first, that Kastenessen was being punished: the other Appointed Elohim (at least the ones we know about) were not. Requiring, say, Findail to remain "aware" when his identity has been effaced in the Staff of Law seems both unreasonable and gratuitously cruel.

(02/27/2008)

[wayfriend]

(This thread is accumulating too many unspoilered Final Chronicles spoilers.)

[AjK]

SRD had an interesting take on the subject:

Ahhh, thanks. Very interesting! Reading the complete GI is on my list right after reading all the chapter dissections from LFB on.