Hopboard

[Lady Genni]

Hopboard...aka...Checkers.

What is it about this game that SDR is trying to tell us? SDR doesn't do things half baked...is how we play even a simple game, a commentary on how people relate to the world around them? Or how the world relate to them?

He describes some of the characters by how they play the game...

King Joyse.."He tries to protect his pieces.."
(shunnign his family to protect them)

Havelock.."..his particular ??? for the game" something about ruthlessness - sorry my quoting abilites suck -
(Only a madman could risk people as he would)

Theresa.."tilting the board"
(Wipeing out the players and starting over in response to a stalemate...Doesn't she do that in her life by going to Mordant?)

Kings daughters:
Elega refuses to play...(she ends up betraying her father)
Myste doesn't seem to understand why the game is important...
(she runs off to, but does have enough sense to see that she and Elega may just be pieces, of a bigger plan.)


Prince Kragen...is tested with the game...although it was more a test of whether or not he'd play vs. skill at the game.

It's considered a game of stratagy. Initially you want to just kind of glance over the references because it seems like a child's game. But when you really think about it...there's something deeper going on....

Thoughts anyone?

[danlo]

This is a question I'm pondered about endlessly, 4 the last year--and I still don't know how 2 answer it... The only offering I've been able 2 give b4 is: "Life is NOT a game of Hopboard!" Hopboard may b akin 2 Covenant's ring--a paradox. Did Joyce's obsession with the game blind him, or save him? Hmmmm.......

[Lady Genni]

I think KJ's perception of the principles blinds him...(maybe?) but I think his obsession is more of a charade for his faked senility.

I just remember when his true intentions are made known, you are both shocked and angered at his tactics. Wasn't it the Alend Monarch who said that it was "either deep policy or madness."

I often think that it's the simple principle that are the most overlooked and powerful. A lot of time we look at things that seem childish but really have some depth to them. Like say the principle of giving. If everyone in the world practiced this more things would be really different. KJ seems to live by these simple but powerful kinds of ideal.

Is SDR telling us that a child's game can "save or damn" us?

[DirectorDios]

Lady Gem...WOW, you've really given this Hop Board theory some thought! Kudos! - It would be interesting to know if SRD actually had those same analogies in mind when he wrote the story, somehow however I would think not. I'm of the opinion that we, as fans and readers, often times try to read TOO much into our favorite stories and the authors motivations behind them. It is my belief that SRD simply and elegently used the game to illustrate his point that throughout his life, King Joyse could not sacrifice his "pieces" for the sake of winning "the game" and therefore different strategies had to be employed in order to minimize the lose of life. Additionally, the game did serve as a means to foster the belief that he had lost his mind, as well as appease Havelock who actually had lost his mind. Perhaps I'm reading too little into it, and the real truth is somewhere in the middle. Who knows really (except SRD) but it's certainly is fun to speculate and read about others opinions.

[Lady Genni]

It would be interesting to know if SRD actually had those same analogies in mind when he wrote the story, somehow however I would think not. I'm of the opinion that we, as fans and readers, often times try to read TOO much into our favorite stories and the authors motivations behind them.

I actually agree with you here. SDR probably didn't have all of that in mind when he wrote it but I was thinking of TCTC and all the "social comentaries" in that work. Just wondering if there was a similar theme in the background of MN.

Yeah, I will admit to reading "too much" into SDR's work. Mostly I take things at face value but his work has such depth that I tend to just go to the next level with it. That or my overworked imagination getting away with me!

[Sevothtarte]

King Joyse.."He tries to protect his pieces.."
(shunnign his family to protect them)

Hmm, nope. Joyse's pieces aren't just his family, it the whole of Mordant. And I wouldn't call his strategy very protective... on the contrary, he's making sacrifices all the time to lure his enemies out. That's checkers in it's purest sense, force the enemy to take your pieces so you can win in the end.

[Ryzel]

I was never quite satisfied about the 'master strategy' of King Joyse. Somehow it seemed a particularly unsuitable strategy for doing what he wanted, and incredibly costly in human terms as well.

I think that describing strategy is not SRD's strongest point. (As a matter of fact I think it is far from his strongest point.) The best example of this is in the one book where there actually is a war going on, TIW, where Hile Troy actually manages to destroy most of his army before discovering that he is outmatched anyway. And then he tries to jump from Kevins Watch in despair. As a matter of fact few of the people in any of SRD's books seem to plan their actions and follow the plans through to their conclusions. This is one of the things that makes for interesting characters of course, but planners they are not.

Good examples are TC taking off looking for the One Tree without having the faintest idea of where to find it or what to actually do when he found it. Another good example is Chrysalis in DoR, who is willing to stake the whole realm on hope and intuition.

[MsMary]

Well. it's possible that strategy is not SRD's characters' strongest points - I don't think that says anything about SRD's own personal strengths as a strategist. Don't forget, he wrote failure of the strategies into his stories. If everything worked out perfectly, the stories wouldn't be as interesting, IMO.

~MsMary~

[Nerdanel]

I think the hopboard analogies are not reading too much into the story. Donaldson is that kind of author.

I also think it's significant that the game in the book is hopboard (checkers) and not chess, like in most books where strategy is likened to a boardgame. One reason might be that hopboard is a fundamentally more democratic game than chess. All the pieces are worth the same, although later some may get crowned. This illuminates Joyce's position of giving everyone's lives similar worth*, unlike Eremis who only values himself. Joyce is willing to estrange his family and put his country and its inhabitants in jeopardy in order to save the world from a disaster. Notice also that he makes Torrent his heir, although according to Elega and a tabulation of people who are in power in Mordant in the book, Mordant is a pretty patriarchal place.

* Of course, philosphical theory and practice were not completely the same thing for Joyce, as you may remember...

[Ryzel]

Well. it's possible that strategy is not SRD's characters' strongest points - I don't think that says anything about SRD's own personal strengths as a strategist. Don't forget, he wrote failure of the strategies into his stories. If everything worked out perfectly, the stories wouldn't be as interesting, IMO.

~MsMary~

For the record: I was not trying to make an observation about SRD here. I assume that he has the necessary skills to plan and execute a work the length of a book and that is good enough for me.

What I wanted to make was an observation about his characters. I may be overly influenced by "The Man Who Fought Alone" but I have considered his other stories as well and I really think that his characters are not really planners, as such. I definitely think that most of them are not meant to be, but those that are meant to be actually comes across as either ineffective or incompetent at making plans. In the example of King Joyse I remember that Adept Havelock, in spite of being mad, was almost as good as he was at being in the right place at the right time.

[Ryzel]

I also think it's significant that the game in the book is hopboard (checkers) and not chess, like in most books where strategy is likened to a boardgame.

I agree with you that this is probably significant. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the rules of checkers and cannot comment on them. However there are several other games that could be used like GO. So why checkers especially?

For those of you interested in games in stories I would recommend the SF novel Golden Witchbreed, by Mary Gentle. In which you will find a game called ochmir (I think) which is a game of strategy which closely mirrors the feudal society in which it is played.

Could it be that Joyse liked hop-board simply because he saw in it a principle of equality like you mention?

[Sevothtarte]

So why checkers especially?

Because it is all about making sacrifices. They are the strategy element of checkers, whereas they don't play such a large role in the other games you mentioned.

[Ryzel]

The concept of sacrifice come up several times in several stories. But is it a theme in SRD's work especially? I guess you could say that several of the people in the chronicles which I consider admirable made considerable sacrifices. But those were mostly of their own selves.

But Joyse is in a special position, he does not give his pieces any choice in the matter of sacrifice. Especially he does not give his friends and family the luxury of choice. Is he evil? Does he consider the end result to be worth the effort of actually doing what he does (i.e. does the end justify the means)?

In this context I can understand him wanting to see people as only pieces he moves about on a board. I must say I am starting to dislike him even more now.

[fightingmyinstincts]

The people in the chrons did not just make sacrifices of themselves: Mhoram was probably pretty hurt to sacrifice the warward so during the illearth war, Loerya serving the council in time of war rather than her family as was her first instinct, Honninscrave risks his dromond rather a lot for the second quest for the SoL...
So: Mhoram fought in the extreme, knowing it was probably futile, not holding back or protecting anything, but KJ would protect his pieces...but both were admirable people.

[Zarathustra]

This forum has been inactive for far too long. Rather than create a new thread, I thought I'd bump this one with the relevant quote it seems everyone missed:

But King Joyse ignored the reactions of his people. Sitting forward eagerly, he said to the Prince, "On the surface, it is a simple game. A child can master it. Yet it is also subtle. In essence, you force your opponent to win battles against you so that he will lose the war. Will you play?"

And that's exactly what Joyse has been doing: forcing his opponents to win battles against him by convincing them he doesn't know what's going on around him.

[Mysteweave]

For me, the whole Hopboard/Checkers thing is kind of like a foreshadowing of KJ's strategy. SRD is trying to hint at what he's doing without actually saying it.

And am I the only one that wasn't angered by KJ's plan?

[Rigel]

I wasn't.

Anyway, I heard about checkers once (sorry, I don't remember if it was SRD or not who said it), that it differs from Chess in that for Chess, all you have to do is concentrate more than your opponent, but for Checkers you have to be creative to win.

As such, Hopboard is a good game for KJ, as he's trying to find a creative solution to his problem. Not to mention the whole stalemate situation...