Masters and Ranyhyn

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

The Ranyhyn are Earthpower incarnate. The Staff of Law is an instrument of Law, but it comes from the One Tree, which is Earthpower.

Does anyone else see the problem with the Masters accepting them as friend and tool?

And if the Staff of Law comes from Earthpower, then Law comes from Earthpower, and they are not different or contradictory.

Thoughts?

[spoonchicken]

[quote="jacob Raver, sinTempter"]The Ranyhyn are Earthpower incarnate. The Staff of Law is an instrument of Law, but it comes from the One Tree, which is Earthpower.

Does anyone else see the problem with the Masters accepting them as friend and tool?

No. The Masters don't have a problem with the existance of Earthpower. They simply have a problem with Earthpower being used(meaning; automatically being MIS-used) by people. The Raynyn aren't people; they're a sentient race of creatures who embody the Earthpower, just as naturally as humans embody water & oxygen in their bodies. Therefore, everyone, even people who disagree on other stuff & don't like each other (Masters & Ramen) DO agree that the Raynyn are trustworthy. People are neither seer nor oracles, therefore the Masters fear that even the most seemingly innocent use of Earthpower will automatically end up serving Despite in the long run, no matter how pure & sincere the intentions of the person wielding Earthpower. But the Raynyn are so empowered by the Earthpower, for them it's not a problem. Therefore, the Masters trust & accept the Raynyns as both friend and tool, because the very nature of the Raynyns existance renders them impervious to Lord Fouls B.S.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Ahh. That makes sense, thanks spoonchicken.
And the Staff issue?

[wayfriend]

I agree with spoonchicken - the Ranyhyn aren't human, they don't weild Earthpower. So the Masters are not concerned. Besides, they didn't know where the Ranyhyn were, so what could they do about?

And the Staff issue?

What is the Staff Issue.

Earthpower and Law are not entirely synonomous, although they are found together often enough. Earthpower is the force; Law is the rules. The Staff weilds the power in accordance with the rules, in order to defend and strengthen the rules.

But someone with the Staff of Law could still do something bad, as far as the Masters are concerned.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think the entire basis of the conflict in the LC is the idea that Earthpower can be used to serve evil, thus Kevin's Dirt. Tools such as the Staff only allow for the focusing of Earthpower.

[spoonchicken]

The Staff of Law is an instrument of Law, but it comes from the One Tree, which is Earthpower.



And if the Staff of Law comes from Earthpower, then Law comes from Earthpower, and they are not different or contradictory.

Thoughts?[/quote] OK, here goes. The One Tree is NOT the Earthpower; it is only a physical manifestation of the Earthpower. Therefore, the Staff of Law is also NOT Earthpower, but only a tool (not a product) of the Earthpower. Let me try to use an electrical analogy. The Earthpower is the same as electricity (forms of energy). The Staff of Law ( & The One Tree) are simply tools that make the Earthpower accssable & usable (such as a light switch on the wall, and the wires bringing the voltage & current to the switch). When one walks into a dark room, you flip on the light switch ( a physical tool that manipulates/controls the flow of energy/power), and the light goes on. By comparison. when the holder of the Staff exerts Earthpower, ...the light coming from the light bulb is the energy being used (Earthpower). The Staff functions just the same as the wires inside the wall, transporting the energy from point A to point B, thereby making the energy (electricty or Earthpower) accessable & usable. The switch that allows the electrical energy to flow is a physical device, that is controlled by a physical act. The switch that allows Earthpower to be wielded is a mental/emotional decision located inside the heart, mind & soul of the person wielding Earthpower of any kind.(different forms of lore). Electrical switches are rated to carry a limited & defined amount of energy. Exceed that amount, and A) circuit breakers trip, and cut off the power flow, and/or B) the energy gets uncontrollable, and an explosion & fire result (burning the house to the ground). By the same token, a person wielding theurgies beyond their ability to keep under tight control, will also result in an uncontrolled and destructive release of energy (too much wild magic, and the entire Earth "burns to the ground" when the Arch is broken). The "Law" works just the same as the laws of physics (or the Nat'l Electrical Code) in our "real" (???? LOL) world. The Law simply is a set of rules outlining what can be done, and what cannot; nothing more than that. If you violate the rules, bad stuff will result. Therefore, yes; Earthpower & Law ARE two entirely diffent things which simply interact very closely to accomplish any given purpose (like a mechanical device known as a motor vehicle, and the liquid fuel sloshing around in the gas tank.Without both working together, AND according to the rules ("Law"), nothing will happen. Interact without obeying the rules, and something bad will happen.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The Staff of Law is an instrument of Law, but it comes from the One Tree, which is Earthpower.

And if the Staff of Law comes from Earthpower, then Law comes from Earthpower, and they are not different or contradictory.

Thoughts?

OK, here goes. The One Tree is NOT the Earthpower; it is only a physical manifestation of the Earthpower. Therefore, the Staff of Law is also NOT Earthpower, but only a tool or product of the Earthpower. Let me try to use an electrical analogy. The Earthpower is the same as electricity (forms of energy). The Staff of Law ( & The One Tree) are simply tools that make the Earthpower accssable & usable (such as a light switch on the wall, and the wires bringing the voltage & current to the switch). When one walks into a dark room, you flip on the light switch ( a physical tool that manipulates/controls the flow of energy/power), and the light goes on. By comparison. when the holder of the Staff exerts Earthpower, ...the light coming from the light bulb is the energy being used (Earthpower). The Staff functions just the same as the wires inside the wall, transporting the energy from point A to point B, thereby making the energy (electricty or Earthpower) accessable & usable. The switch that allows the electrical energy to flow is a physical device, that is controlled by a physical act. The switch that allows Earthpower to flow is a mental/emotional desicion located inside the heart, mind & soul of the person wielding magic of any kind. Electrical switches are rated to carry a limited & defined amount of energy. Exceed that amount, and A) circuit breakers trip, and cut off the power flow, and/or B) the energy gets uncontrollable, and an explosion & fire result (burning the house to the ground). By the same token, a person wielding theurgies beyond their ability to keep under tight control, will also result in an uncontrolled and destructive release of energy (too much wild magic, and the entire Earth "burns to the ground" when the Arch is broken).

I followed you up to that last sentence. I don't think the theurgies would destroy the Earth, only the person wielding it, overloading the mental and physical circuits, so to speak. TC could not possibly wield enough wild magic to destroy the Earth. But his every exertion of wild magic is a violation of Time and tends to hasten the natural entropy inherent to all being. In other words, it only accelerates Time's inevitable ending.

[spoonchicken]

The Staff of Law is an instrument of Law, but it comes from the One Tree, which is Earthpower.

And if the Staff of Law comes from Earthpower, then Law comes from Earthpower, and they are not different or contradictory.

Thoughts?

OK, here goes. The One Tree is NOT the Earthpower; it is only a physical manifestation of the Earthpower. Therefore, the Staff of Law is also NOT Earthpower, but only a tool or product of the Earthpower. Let me try to use an electrical analogy. The Earthpower is the same as electricity (forms of energy). The Staff of Law ( & The One Tree) are simply tools that make the Earthpower accssable & usable (such as a light switch on the wall, and the wires bringing the voltage & current to the switch). When one walks into a dark room, you flip on the light switch ( a physical tool that manipulates/controls the flow of energy/power), and the light goes on. By comparison. when the holder of the Staff exerts Earthpower, ...the light coming from the light bulb is the energy being used (Earthpower). The Staff functions just the same as the wires inside the wall, transporting the energy from point A to point B, thereby making the energy (electricty or Earthpower) accessable & usable. The switch that allows the electrical energy to flow is a physical device, that is controlled by a physical act. The switch that allows Earthpower to flow is a mental/emotional desicion located inside the heart, mind & soul of the person wielding magic of any kind. Electrical switches are rated to carry a limited & defined amount of energy. Exceed that amount, and A) circuit breakers trip, and cut off the power flow, and/or B) the energy gets uncontrollable, and an explosion & fire result (burning the house to the ground). By the same token, a person wielding theurgies beyond their ability to keep under tight control, will also result in an uncontrolled and destructive release of energy (too much wild magic, and the entire Earth "burns to the ground" when the Arch is broken).

I followed you up to that last sentence. I don't think the theurgies would destroy the Earth, only the person wielding it, overloading the mental and physical circuits, so to speak. TC could not possibly wield enough wild magic to destroy the Earth. But his every exertion of wild magic is a violation of Time and tends to hasten the natural entropy inherent to all being. In other words, it only accelerates Time's inevitable ending.

1) Yes, the person would also be destroyed (Atirian Trell-Mate getting burned to death trying to summon TC, and getting Hile Troy instead). We are agreed on that point. 2) Yes, every exertion of wild magic serves to erode the strength of the Arch. Again, we are agreed. 3) Who is to say that TC CAN'T directly destroy the Earth, if he so desired? The wild magic has been said to be suited to "gouging out mountains". And if TC is truly a being of pure wild magic, then perhaps the only thing limiting TC's power is the imagination of Dr.Donaldson. Personally, I for one am hesitant to try to second-guess Lord Donaldson the Inspirer.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As the Arch of Time erodes, it becomes possible for a person even as weak and mad as Joan to create Caesures which allow violations of Time itself, making time travel possible. At the apex of the Land's beauty such a phenomenon would only have been possible to a more powerful being such as LF or an Elohim. As entropy sets into the Arch, the limits of human nature become a lesser factor. The effects of wild magic become exponentially stronger, thus accelerating and facilitating natural entropy towards its inevitable conclusion.

[wayfriend]

SpoonChicken, Donaldson explicitely states in the GI that the Staff is not a light switch.

You may find this generally useful.

Peter Hunt: Mr Donaldson,

thank you for 20 years of wonderful and immersive storytelling. I was lucky enough to meet you during your visit to San Francisco last month, but was too awe-struck to be coherant when you signed my copy of Runes. So please accept my thanks retrospectively <g>.

Can you help me understand the relationship between Law, Earthpower and the Staff of Law? Am I right in thinking that the destruction of the Staff weakened the structure of Law? Did that destruction make existing Laws easier to break, and Earthpower easier to corrupt?

Did the creation of the new Staff at the end of the Second Chronicles restore the broken Laws (of death, Life, etc)?

• These matters are all so intuitively, well, obvious to me that I find it difficult to actually explain them. <sigh>
  
  Let's start with Law (structure, rules, governing principles) and Earthpower (energy, vital substance). Think of our solar system. If the planets weren't in furious motion (energy), they would fall into the sun and burn up: if the planets weren't tethered by gravity (structure), they would simply sail away. Without that balance between energy and constraint, nothing could exist. (Of course, to a physicist, it's all energy in one form of another. But still the energy of gravity has to balance the energy of motion, or else nothing could exist.)
  
  Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.
  
  So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.
  
  But. This is does *not* imply that Linden's creation of a new Staff *automatically* restores the structure of Law to its original form. A tool has to be used to be effective; and the person using the tool has to know what he/she is doing. Linden, and then Sunder and Hollian, clearly have the spirit and the heart to use the Staff effectively; but they don't necessarily have the lore, the knowledge, to accomplish everything that the Staff is capable of doing. (The absence of runes on the new Staff is not an accident.) Also the new Staff is profoundly different than Berek's original creation. It was formed, not from the wood of the One Tree, but from one sentient (Findail) and one quasi-sentient (Vain) being, each of whose nature affects the inherent qualities of both the new Staff and what the new Staff can do. (And then there's the interesting question of whether Sunder and Hollian would actually *want* to heal the broken Law of Life, since by doing so they might undo themselves.) And in addition: when the new Staff was created, it became an inherent participant in both Law and Earthpower, just as Berek's did; BUT the *condition* of Law and Earthpower when Linden created her Staff was different than it was when Berek created his; and therefore the *condition* of the new Staff is also different.
  
  So. The creation of the new Staff did not *in itself* restore the broken Laws of Death and Life. Presumably it *could*. If the right wielder used it in the right way. But that hasn't happened yet.
  
  <whew>
  
  (12/20/2004)

[spoonchicken]

Respectfully, I didn't say the Staff was the equivilent of a light switch. I said the decision to employ magic was the equivelent of a light switch. Also, thanks much for the GI quote. SRD does a MUCH better job than I of addressing this issue. However, I still like my explanation....

[spoonchicken]

By the way, just call me Spoony

[Ur Dead]

Can we call you chickie?

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Yah, thanks Wayfriend, that helped.

[spoonchicken]

Can we call you chickie?

NO! NO! NO!