Self fulfilling prophecies

[Vader]

I am sure this has all been discussed before but search function failed me (being a mod on another forum myself I know how annoying it is whgen people don't use search). Also I'll be damned if I knew wehre to put it, but I think this might be the appropriate place.

Reading TC1 again triggered of a few ideas. I know SRD didn't have the story for TC2 and TC3 in mind at that time, but still ...

"Wild magic graven in every rock" ...

Could it be that wild magic is graven in every rock in the same way white gold is woven into the Arc of Time? I noticed that a lot of prophecies, banes and boons have to work out simply because there "effect" was already present before there even was a cause. It's hard to put it in words, but take Berek and white gold for example. Througout the first and second chronicles it looks as if he makes a prophecy and then wild gold suddenly enters the land. In the last chronicles we know that white gold (with AL) already was in the land before Berek made his prophecy that a white gold wielder would come to the land.

Or take the Staff of Law - as it looks now Berek didn't make it and Linden then made a new one because Elena lost the old one thousands of years later, but rather like Berek made his because he saw the allegedly newer staff in Linden's hands.

It all looks like self fulfilling prophecies and what appears to be an end eventually turns out to be the beginning. Effects may be the their own cause and sometimes the furture is the past of the present. This may sound confusing, but to me it starts making sense reading the books this way.

Due to all these caesures and time travelling the final battle just might take a similar turn like that of TC2, only that know TC not only becomes part of the Arc of Time but alos of the land itself. thus graving wild magic in every rock ...

As for the title ... Against All Things Ending - What could be more against it as All Things Beginning? I expecta hell of lot more self fulfilling prophecies ...

[Orlion]

Interesting... I'll have to give this a lot of thought....

[Orlion]

Stupid slow internet, submitting my entry three times...let's see here... if I recall correctly, SRD said one of the main reasons for writing the LC was to unify the entire series, and this could accomplish this.

[wayfriend]

Personally, I'm dreading the idea of the series going in that direction; that by travelling backward in time Linden and Covenant are responsible for everything. That implies, to me, that there's nothing of value in the Land except what they brought to it in the first place.

Which may be exactly right. It may sew up the dream/reality issue in a tidy way. But I'd be disappointed that the Lords and the Giants and the Haruchai and everything else weren't heroic and valuable and inspirational on their own.

So I will attempt to make a counter argument.

Could it be that wild magic is graven in every rock in the same way white gold is woven into the Arc of Time?

I believe that this has already been stated as being the fact, or at least implied. The Arch of Time is founded on wild magic; therefore, everything that exists within the Arch respects and responds to wild magic. Wild magic is, for lack of a better word, one of the building blocks of matter, in the Landverse.

Or take the Staff of Law - as it looks now Berek didn't make it and Linden then made a new one because Elena lost the old one thousands of years later, but rather like Berek made his because he saw the allegedly newer staff in Linden's hands.

The Theomach's stated purpose was to guide Berek in the uses of Earthpower and lead him to the One Tree in order to make the Staff of Law. This was his purpose before he met Linden; it remains his purpose after his encounter with Linden. So Berek doesn't need the example of Linden's Staff in order to explain his desire to make his own; the Theomach explains it completely.

[Vader]

So I will attempt to make a counter argument.

Could it be that wild magic is graven in every rock in the same way white gold is woven into the Arc of Time?

I believe that this has already been stated as being the fact, or at least implied. The Arch of Time is founded on wild magic; therefore, everything that exists within the Arch respects and responds to wild magic. Wild magic is, for lack of a better word, one of the building blocks of matter, in the Landverse.

But still it could be Covenant/Linden who originally founded the ARc of Time on/with wild magic. That would explain why Foul could neither beat TC nor destroy the AoT at the end of the second chronicles. TC has always been part of the AoT since he probably created it (wild guess).

Or take the Staff of Law - as it looks now Berek didn't make it and Linden then made a new one because Elena lost the old one thousands of years later, but rather like Berek made his because he saw the allegedly newer staff in Linden's hands.

The Theomach's stated purpose was to guide Berek in the uses of Earthpower and lead him to the One Tree in order to make the Staff of Law. This was his purpose before he met Linden; it remains his purpose after his encounter with Linden. So Berek doesn't need the example of Linden's Staff in order to explain his desire to make his own; the Theomach explains it completely.

But who says that it wasn't TC/Linden who gave the Theomach that idea in the first place? If I remember correct the Theomach recognized Linden when Roger and the croyel brought her to the days of Berek. How is this possible? He only met her a thousand years forward in the future (and you can't really say they met since all she did was watching him fight Brinn from the distance). And we know that though the Theomach can step outside time he can't travel through it like the Mahdoubt. The only possibly way to know Linden is that he has met her before they met in Berek's days ... (But I'd have to re-read the passage of their meeting in the last chronicles again to be sure.)

[wayfriend]

So I will attempt to make a counter argument.

Could it be that wild magic is graven in every rock in the same way white gold is woven into the Arc of Time?

I believe that this has already been stated as being the fact, or at least implied. The Arch of Time is founded on wild magic; therefore, everything that exists within the Arch respects and responds to wild magic. Wild magic is, for lack of a better word, one of the building blocks of matter, in the Landverse.

But still it could be Covenant/Linden who originally founded the ARc of Time on/with wild magic. That would explain why Foul could neither beat TC nor destroy the AoT at the end of the second chronicles. TC has always been part of the AoT since he probably created it (wild guess).

True. And in the sense that Covenant "is" the Creator, you would have your answer.

But in another sense, white gold is powerful because the Creator chose Covenant and saw that he carried it. Or the Creator chose Covenant because of the white gold he carried. Either way, that is your connection; Covenant need not be the Creator, nor the creator of the Arch.

Or take the Staff of Law - as it looks now Berek didn't make it and Linden then made a new one because Elena lost the old one thousands of years later, but rather like Berek made his because he saw the allegedly newer staff in Linden's hands.

The Theomach's stated purpose was to guide Berek in the uses of Earthpower and lead him to the One Tree in order to make the Staff of Law. This was his purpose before he met Linden; it remains his purpose after his encounter with Linden. So Berek doesn't need the example of Linden's Staff in order to explain his desire to make his own; the Theomach explains it completely.

But who says that it wasn't TC/Linden who gave the Theomach that idea in the first place? If I remember correct the Theomach recognized Linden when Roger and the croyel brought her to the days of Berek. How is this possible? He only met her a thousand years forward in the future (and you can't really say they met since all she did was watching him fight Brinn from the distance). And we know that though the Theomach can step outside time he can't travel through it like the Mahdoubt. The only possibly way to know Linden is that he has met her before they met in Berek's days ... (But I'd have to re-read the passage of their meeting in the last chronicles again to be sure.)

The Theomach, as an Insequent, has power over some aspects of time. In his case, he seems to be able to somehow see the future. So he knows a significant amount of the future, and uses this to keep Linden on a course that won't change history too much. He knew of the Unfettered, and the Seven Words, and Berek's quest for the Staff, the rest of Berek's history, and many other things. Therefore, there's no need for Linden to have told him anything at an earlier time.

It may be that Linden or someone gave him all this knowledge by travelling to the past yet another time. But I think he's too aware of too much for this to be plausible; I think he has abilities to peer ahead into time.

The Mahdount says, about herself:

"In some measure, she has made of herself an adept of Time - as did the Theomach as well, assuredly, though in another form. But she beholds only the time in which she manifests herself, neither its past nor its future. Thus she is unable to witness her own future. Her present is here. Beyond this moment, she may estimate intentions and perils, but she cannot observe deeds and outcomes which lie ahead.

"The Theomach's powers were greater than the Mandoubt's."

Such words lead one to believe that the Theomach is an adept of time who can indeed behold more than his present time, and witness his own future.

[Vader]

What if Covenant really is the Creator and he met himself wearing an ochre robe?

[wayfriend]

What if Covenant really is the Creator and he met himself wearing an ochre robe?

Indeed. Many people have so speculated.

But I hope Covenant's spirtual journey to unite with his Creator-side and his Despiser-side doesn't end so ... gimicky. Just a personal opinion.

[hearthrall antonicus]

What if Anele is the Creator, playing the part off so that everybody discounts him? What if the Creator is hiding "inside" him , to camoflage himself so that his nemesis Lord Foul dosen,t know it, and is biding his time awaiting events to unfold? I mean just because he is the Creator, maybe he is not like "our" creator. Could it be that he is not omnipotent?

[Vader]

I'm pretty much sure that SDR is into these circular things. In the end the story will come full circle and the end will turn out to be the beginning. Anele being the creator is a nice idea but doesn't really fit into this pattern of thought. I think it will all boil down to TC being both Creator and Despiser.

And in which way will TC be able "to unite with his Creator-side and his Despiser-side?" Is it some kind of Hegelian dialectic? The identity of Identity and Non-Identity?

And what will this unity mean for TC? Will he'll be cured from leprosy? But he is dead in the real world. But how real is that world anyway? Who knows, maybe the land will turn out to be real and the world TC and Linden come from is the illusion.

[Manny Calavera]

What if Anele is the Creator, playing the part off so that everybody discounts him? What if the Creator is hiding "inside" him , to camoflage himself so that his nemesis Lord Foul dosen,t know it, and is biding his time awaiting events to unfold? I mean just because he is the Creator, maybe he is not like "our" creator. Could it be that he is not omnipotent?

He can't be,nor could he be inside anele.The creator cannot pass through the arch.

[Vader]

What if Anele is the Creator, playing the part off so that everybody discounts him? What if the Creator is hiding "inside" him , to camoflage himself so that his nemesis Lord Foul dosen,t know it, and is biding his time awaiting events to unfold? I mean just because he is the Creator, maybe he is not like "our" creator. Could it be that he is not omnipotent?

He can't be,nor could he be inside anele.The creator cannot pass through the arch.

That leaves only Covenant - he sort of is the Arc of Time extended.

Or maybe Jeremiah? Notice that he can built doors to whatever places and traps and stuff - maybe he's the Creator having learned to build a door into the world. (The Creator sort of - accidently - trapped his children inside the World. They became stars. The Elohim have been associated with these children and Jeremiah can build traps for the Elohim - go figure).

But I still think in the end TC and LA will turn out to be responsible for the creation of the world.

[Orlion]

It seems more likely to me that Lord Foul is the Creator....

Am I serious? Find out, next time on "As the World Burns..."

[hearthrall antonicus]

Manny had it right,yes,yes...I d forgotten that the Creator can t pass through the Arch. Master Vader had a good point in relation to Jeremiah-Creator activities. Good thread....----------H

[Vader]

It seems more likely to me that Lord Foul is the Creator....

Am I serious? Find out, next time on "As the World Burns..."

That's it. After inventing Alzheimer the Creator simply forgot who he was and accidently locked himself inside his own creation.

[Orlion]

It seems more likely to me that Lord Foul is the Creator....

Am I serious? Find out, next time on "As the World Burns..."

That's it. After inventing Alzheimer the Creator simply forgot who he was and accidently locked himself inside his own creation.

It's a cautionary tale for us all...