The Creator

[Spirit of the Knight]

Hi all. Not sure whether this has ever been mentioned here and apologise if it has but why didn't TC ever mention the fact that he actually had a conversation with the Creator to any of the people of the land both before his first transition and upon returning in TSC.

I'm sure it would have gone down well as a legendary story for them.

"And Thomas Covenant having saved the Land from Corruptions maw stood before The Creator who gave thanks to The Unbeliever for redeeming his world and children and offered him the status of hero to which The Unbeliever rejected as a true hero should, preferring, still, to return to his strife stricken world"

What think you all??




"Castigation is a doom which achieves itself"

[danlo]

I don't believe he did, it was more of a "trans-worlds" experience meant for him alone. I could be wrong...

[SoulBiter]

In the first Chronicles he didnt know until the end of the series that it was the creator that he was dealing with. Up until that point it was just a old man in an ochre robe. And even into the last book he wasnt sure he 'believed', he just accepted.

Except from the end of The Power that Preserves

”Because I don’t believe it.”

“No?” the Despiser shouted with glee. “Still?” His laughter expressed perfect contempt. “Groveler, you are pathetic beyond price. Almost I am persuaded to keep you at my side. You would be a jester to lighten my burdens.” Still he catechized Covenant. “How is it possible that you can loathe or love where you do not believe?”

“Nevertheless.”

“How is it possible to disbelieve where you loathe and love?”

“Still.”

Lord Foul laughed again. “Do my ears betray me? Do you—after my Enemy has done all within his power to sway you—do you yet believe that this is a dream?”

“It isn’t real. But that doesn’t matter. That’s not important.”

“Then what is, groveler?”

“The Land. You.”

Once more, the Despiser laughed. But his mirth was short and vicious now; he sounded disturbed, as if there were something in Covenant which he could not understand. “The Land and Unbelief,” he jeered. “You poor, deranged soul! You cannot have both. They preclude each other.”

By the time the second Chronicles came around there was no one he could have told it to that would have known what he was talking about.

[wayfriend]

I'm not so sure that Covenant didn't suspect the beggar before the end of TPTP.

At the beginning of TPTP, he tells Susie Thurston that he "knows" the beggar was up to something. "That crazy old beggar told you to call me Berek, and you did it."

And as early as LFB, Covenant was associating the beggar with the creator.

"According to you, Foul chose me. But he talked about me on Kevin's Watch as if I had been chosen by someone else - `my Enemy,' he said. Who was he talking about?"

Thoughtfully, the High Lord replied, "I do not know. We said earlier that we hoped there were other forces at work in your selection. Perhaps there were. A few of our oldest legends speak of a Creator - the Creator of the Earth - but we know nothing of such a being. We only know that we are mortal, but Lord Foul is not - in some way, he surpasses flesh."

"The Creator," Covenant muttered. "All right." A disturbing memory of the old beggar who had accosted him outside the courthouse flared momentarily. "Why did he choose me?"

[SoulBiter]

Perhaps he did suspect but suspicion is not knowing. I had forgotten that discussion with Mhoram (good catch) but even with that I dont think he really 'knew' until the creator is talking with him at the end of TPTP. He even told the creator that he didnt believe in him either. LOL

[matrixman]

Good question, Spirit of the Knight. (SpoT? Spirit? Knight?) I think it amounts to a "convenient contrivance" on the author's part. In the scene wayfriend quoted, there's no good reason why Covenant couldn't have mentioned the beggar right then and there. The only thing I can think of is that Covenant wanted to know where he stood with the Lords before volunteering too much information...but that seems weak. Maybe it just showed how confused and scared he was at that point in the story.

[Loresraat]

It depends. No matter how religious any of us are, people from our world do NOT expect a Creator/Diety to be walking around on our planet in person. Unbeliever that he is, I'd read that reference as Covenant dismissing the possibility of old-beggar-as-Creator as too ludicrous to be true, probably before he was even consciously aware of the dismissal.

[Spirit of the Knight]

Thanks everyone for your input. Yes Wayfriend, I had forgotten about that conversation TC had with Mhoram. But he didn't really elaborate on the meeting with the old man.

Still though, TC didn't mention it in the second chronicles to anyone. It would have made for interesting reading in hearing how some of the characters would have responded to such a tale from TC.

[Earthfriend]

...why didn't TC ever mention the fact that he actually had a conversation with the Creator to any of the people of the land both before his first transition and upon returning in TSC. [/i]

I think upon his return to the Land, Covenant was completely thrown by the fact that this time, the Creator had spoken to Linden, not to him, and what that meant. This, the need to protect Linden, and the desecration Foul had made of the Land, were foremost in Covenant's mind I think. And he had other, more powerful tales to relate.

[wayfriend]

I don't have any recollection of Covenant not telling Linden about the relationship between the old beggar and the Creator. I feel sure that he must have.

[Orlion]

I don't have any recollection of Covenant not telling Linden about the relationship between the old beggar and the Creator. I feel sure that he must have.

I think he told her on top of Kevin's Watch, when he's giving her a crash course of what's going on.

[Blackhawk]

did TC even remember his encounter with the creator? he remembered the beggar but was it a solid connection? I thought the beggar was Berek or Kevin or someone tormented, trying to make TC take the burden. i dont ever remember him inwardly thinking about that encounter, could be the creator had safeguards for just that purpose.. could it be a case of, what happens outside the arch stays outside the arch?

When TC and Linden were sent together to the land, I thought that TC was spoken to by Lord Foul and Linden didnt hear anyone at all? did all of Lindens insight come from the man in the Ochre robe?

the only recollection i have of tc and the creator was the end of TPTP.

im halfway through TIEW now...

[wayfriend]

I don't have any recollection of Covenant not telling Linden about the relationship between the old beggar and the Creator. I feel sure that he must have.

I think he told her on top of Kevin's Watch, when he's giving her a crash course of what's going on.

Actually, now that I look at it, he only said: "That old man - Somehow, he knows what's going on in the Land. And he's no friend of Foul's. He chose you for something - I don't know what. Or maybe he wanted to reassure himself. Find out if you're the kind of person Foul can manipulate."
He talks about the Creator. But never actually links it with the old man.

Hmmm... that quote makes me believe that TC doesn't think the beggar is the Creator at all.

[Spirit of the Knight]

I was thinking more along the lines of the fairly long conversation TC had with the Creator at the end of TPTP, where, I believe, TC came to the conclusion that the disembodied voice that spoke to him after the Despisers defeat was actually the Creators aka Old Man and how he didn't even mention that fact to Linden when they returned in TSC.

I realise , at the time, TC still didn't believe The Creator existed, and told him so, but surely he would have believed it on his return in TSCs.

It seems to me that The Creator knows deep down that his world will be saved because he did say to Linden to "Be True. You will not fail, however he may assail you" therefore I don't see why TC has never discussed the meeting at length with anyone in the Land or even Linden for that matter. I would have liked to hear the responses he would have received.

[peter]

I think that for a 'creation' as epic in scale as the Land, its inhabitants and the story that unfolds as we read, it is inevitable that inconsistancies of behaviour, of actions, and indeed of narative flow will creep in - hell, they creep into 'real life' let alone into artificial constructs (how many times have we all heard a true story and said "...but why didn't he/she....!" ). I think an essential part of reading is to some extent to be able to pass over these apparent incongruencies without dwelling on them too deeply - I suppose this is like a slightly more subtle version of the ' suspension of disbelief that is required at the cinema. That is not however to say that it is not fun to have a look at these 'discrepencies' when they occur - but they mustn't be allowed to detract from your pleasure of the whole.

[drew]

If Covenant told some one like, Mhoram about the beggar, at would have undid his Unbelief.

[Xar]

I don't have any recollection of Covenant not telling Linden about the relationship between the old beggar and the Creator. I feel sure that he must have.

I think he told her on top of Kevin's Watch, when he's giving her a crash course of what's going on.

Actually, now that I look at it, he only said: "That old man - Somehow, he knows what's going on in the Land. And he's no friend of Foul's. He chose you for something - I don't know what. Or maybe he wanted to reassure himself. Find out if you're the kind of person Foul can manipulate."
He talks about the Creator. But never actually links it with the old man.

Hmmm... that quote makes me believe that TC doesn't think the beggar is the Creator at all.

I think it's more a case of not really giving it too much importance. He has moved past his Unbelief but nowhere it says that he now believes in the reality of the Land: he only believes that regardless of its reality, it's worth fighting for. In the same vein, even though he linked the old man in the ochre robe to the Creator, he doesn't necessarily believe in the real existence of the Creator (after all, if he did, he'd have to necessarily believe in the Land's reality as well). Therefore to him it's unimportant whether the old man is the Creator or simply a crazy old guy; in fact, validating either hypothesis (say, by stating it out loud to someone who will tend to believe it) would invalidate the paradox of Unbelief. And we know that Covenant still holds onto that in the SC: when he tells Linden about what happened, he gives her both possibilities and tells her it's up to her what she believes, but he never states he thinks either of them is the truth, IIRC.

[wayfriend]

I think your pretty much right on that point, Xar.

[Barnetto]

Hi all. Not sure whether this has ever been mentioned here and apologise if it has but why didn't TC ever mention the fact that he actually had a conversation with the Creator to any of the people of the land both before his first transition and upon returning in TSC.

I'm sure it would have gone down well as a legendary story for them.
"Castigation is a doom which achieves itself"

As far as the First Chronicles is concerned (still rereading so can't comment on the Second), I think it is pretty clear. Covenant hates all the attempts to associate him with being the saviour of the Land (Berek, white gold), he just doesn't want to take on the responsibility of that. It's too much for him to deal with.

So the last thing he is going to say in that situation, is "Hey, do you know what, funny you should mention that but there was this Creator-like bloke in my own world who seems to have foreshadowed my summoning. And now I think of it, he actually had the opportunity to keep the white gold ring when I gave it to him but he gave it back to me and told me to "Be true". Blimey, if he didn't choose me for this task....."

He's going to tuck it away into the "too difficult" pile for as long as he can.

[peter]

Covenant never said or did anything that might justify the belief of the people in the land that he was there to save them in the 1st Chs. In the 2nd he hadn't been chosen and this was gall to him, so he avoided mention of the creator on the basis that he could be exposed as a redundant force (as he deep down believed he was) as a result of accepting Foul's bargin to replace Joan on the slab.