Ur-Vile/Waynhim Wedges

[hue of fuzzpaws]

I am working at the moment on the scene from Gildenfire that WF so kindly posted. However, a thought has occurred to me.

I was under the impression the when ur-viles form their wedges, they were in physical contact with each other, so to pass the power to the Loremaster.

I have been looking through my two collected volumes of the chronicles and can find no mention of this. All I can glean from SRD descriptions is that the ur-viles seem to be more in ranks, like soldiers, when they are in their wedges.

Any clarification on this matter would be most helpful.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I always imagine a Greek phalanx - so more of a military formation, where the wedge shape serves as a metaphysical focus upon the loremaster and his stave.

dw

[soft one]

I always imagine a Greek phalanx - so more of a military formation, where the wedge shape serves as a metaphysical focus upon the loremaster and his stave.

dw

I agree. I've never really thought of them being in physical contact with each other, but more like a military phalanx.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I don't think it ever gets that specific.

But from what we see in the Last Chronicles, when

Spoiler

an ur-Vile liquefies part of itself to form the nourishment that Linden needs and the fact that they still impart their powers upon others via the mixing of blood

it seems that physical contact when focusing their power seems to be crucial.

So a Lord "shattering" a wedge might be more than just rolling a strike in bowling, imo.

[hpty603]

I've always thought of the wedge as a triangle so as the power flows through from the back it is concentrated, needing more powerful Demondim Spawn to effectively control it and they can add more of their own power to it. To channel that power, they would need some sort of link. I think of it as them doing their own version of a mind meld and while they're in wedge formation, they exist as a single entity. The shattering of the wedge would be caused by the link being broken and the Demondim Spawn would be quite disoriented after being thrown back into their own body by such a force

[wayfriend]

Good question! (It would make a good GI question, too.)

SRD wrote "a wedge which allowed them to focus their whole power in the leader". Not much else.

My personal impression is that the ur-viles would lay their iron staves or scimitars on the shoulders of the u-rviles in front of them in the wedge. Thus their power would pass from ur-vile to u-rvile to the wedge leader.

I agree that there's nothing which says this.

However, the character of Demondim-spawn magic seems to require excercising their magic through their weapons - be it a dirk or an iron stave or a scimitar.

During the battle of TPTP, the urviles used their staves to wind up the catapults, while a loremaster filled the catapult's cup with his stave. Later, they put their staves in the ground to create the fear-spell which engulfs Revelstone, which visibly entered the ground ("red pain sickly tinged with green blossomed from the embedded tips of the loremasters' staves"). Etc. etc.

I cannot think of any ur-vile or Waynhim using a mind-to-mind kind of power.

And, I have to ask, if it is a mind-to-mind power, why form a wedge? If it is a physical connection thing, then a wedge is a natural formation for sending power to one place, like the tributaries of a river leading to the mouth. The focus is in the front to attack and to defend the wedge, and the wedge is behind.

So I sort of feel that using their weapons to transfer power to another ur-vile seems to fit their character better than anything else. It explains why there is a wedge at all. And it certainly explains how a wedge could be "busted up" by charging Haruchai.

Finally, there are these other cryptic passages SRD wrote about the wedge, which may or may not mean anything:

Strength surged through scores of black shoulders; they emanated power as the loremaster labored over the cup.

Then [Satansfist] forged them into two immense wedges, one on either side of him, with their tips at his shoulders, facing Revelstone.

That first passage seems to indicate that the urviles are doing something with their arms.

The second one leads me to ask, why not one big wedge? I can only think that there are so many ur-viles that it's too much power for one loremaster to handle. So they split it into two wedges, with two loremasters. (Remember how Covenant was only able to handle so much Waynhim power when he was gifted with speed?)

But in order for that to make sense, that means that the power is not going directly to the Giant, but going first through the loremasters. So this means that there might be indeed some kind of chain, where power is passed from ur-vile to ur-vile to ur-vile (to Giant) through a direct physical connection.

If it was a mind-to-mind power, this using two wedges thing doesn't seem to add up.

[hue of fuzzpaws]

Thank you Wayfriend for those last two quotes, I had a niggling feeling that there was something related about ur-viles shoulders, so I had come up with this image;

[Blackhawk]

formations are strenth, Like Spartan or Greek armies.. and a triangular or pyramidal formation is one of the strongest structures you could use as a base. I recall in Lord Fouls Bane and IEW that warriors were hacked up from striking in too close to the wedge or acid was flung at them ... and i always wondered if it was the surrounding wedge that wielded their blades while the loremaster was using Vitriol, and a wedge would have to be able to defend itself from any side at one time, ..that would be the strength being that you had a point in any direction of attack so the wedges power could be shifted to the attacking corner,though only one loremaster was in each wedge, so it left weakness on the back corners...

Best guess i have would be inner arm for contact and outer arm for blade wielding, Which seems to be the way you have it shown.. otherwise you have 9/10ths of the wedge vulnerable if you encircle the wedge at hand.

Thats is a Good GI question, im going to look it up and see if anyone has asked.

Though i always pictured them both hands on the Stave and in very close formation.

[Relayer]

I don't think they need to be in physical contact, but proximity is needed. I also think that calling it "mind-to-mind" isn't quite accurate either.

I look at it almost more metaphysically; that each ur-vile focuses its' energy forward to and thru the urviles in front of it, and that energy multiplies as it combines and surges forward thru the wedge until it is wielded by the loremaster. And, each member still retains the ability to strike and defend the sides and rear.

[Thorhammerhand]

HOB

Add some form of blade to the hands of the edge ur-viles and that is how I always visulised it.

The waynhim wedges i always saw as more of a melle of blades supported by thier wierd theogy rather than a lore masters scepter, howerver they also focused thier power at the point. Don't forget that in TPTP the waynhim focus thier power into the eh-brand in the finl battle at Revelstone.

[peter]

I had always visualised the Ur-Vile wedge as being a roiling mass of bodies, in the traditional shape of a triangle with the lore master at the apex, but internally disordered and chaotic with, yes, much body contact - not as neccesity but more in the spirit of the Demondim's disturbed and agitated nature. A bit like a sackfull of ferrets!

[Cagliostro]

Mmmmm...I'm now hungry for a wedge of Ur-Viles. Or cheese. Or Ur-Viles made of cheese.

[peter]

Mmmmm...I'm now hungry for a wedge of Ur-Viles. Or cheese. Or Ur-Viles made of cheese.

Some people is just dang greedy!