Is science a religion?

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Fist and Faith
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Post by Fist and Faith »

rusmeister wrote:Anyway, if you don't understand GKC, as I maintain is the case, then there is no point disagreeing.
Did I not say so?!? Over and over?!? ;) :lol: I knew from the start that we will not agree about him. What is the point in going back and forth? Of course, rebuttals to what you just said about him spring to mind immediately, but I'd rather not. What point?
rusmeister wrote:
But there is a universe. It is fact in all ways. OTOH, there is no evidence that a creator exists. It is merely something various people, for various reasons, believe exists. It is more logical to assume that the thing that exists was uncreated than to assume that the thing that does not exist was uncreated.
Stubbornly insisting that such thoughts and the discussions that spring from them have objective meaning, and that any truth to be derived is, axiomatically, objective, or it is not truth, I can say that this is not a valid logic chain, at least as stated. The section I bolded is already an unproven assumption. Therefore it is not more logical. The fact that the universe exists does not in any manner make it more logical to assume that it was uncreated - a piece of fantasy at least on a level of the existence of God. (I have no idea on how to easily find our old posts on this.)
Our old posts don't matter. The impression you had of them - whether due to my expressing myself badly, or your misunderstanding me - is wrong. Now, perhaps, we're getting somewhere. And this is worth discussing. As I've said, it's a starting point.

Yes, my position is more logical, because my assumption does not require proof. Ask a logician.

The universe exists. If there is only one thing that is truly self-evident, it is that the universe exists. The evidence of the universe's existence is nothing less than everything. Each component of everything, and all of those components combined. To doubt the universe's existence is, literally, insane.

On the other hand, there is no evidence for a creator. None. In fact, many, including you, claim it is - indeed, it must be - believed without evidence. And without evidence of a creator's existence, it is completely logical to believe the universe is the uncreated thing. Before it is logical to assume a creator is the uncreated thing (Except in the sense that, if there is no creator, it is certainly uncreated. :lol:), there must be evidence that there is a creator.

But none of that is even necessary. Even if my position did require proof in the formal rules of logic, it does not to me. It is a fact of my life that no creator exists. It is the result of perceiving everything I am able to perceive, and examining every moment of my life. There has never been the slightest reason for me to believe there is a creator, so I don't. Should I base my logic or beliefs on your life's experiences? That would be highly illogical. Therefore, it is illogical to assume that, given the hypothetical choice of universe and creator, a creator is the uncreated thing.

Using the formal rules of logic, or my own personal conclusions, it is more logical to believe the universe is uncreated. Therefore, some other line of thought will be needed to make me believe there is a creator. That's what this is about, if you'll recall. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I have no doubt you have evidence of a creator. It can only be of a personal nature, so I could not take it away from you. Nor do I want to. I have not attempted to, if you will look back. I only speak of what I know, and what I have experienced.

rusmeister wrote:
Yours is making my life less important, because it is not truly its own. It is a... what's a good phrase... staging ground? It's purpose is what comes after it. It is not its own.
This is another example of not understanding my position. We hold this life to be incredibly important and valuable. If by "its own" you mean insisting on it being something with only subjective meaning and coming to a final end, though, then I would consider "my own" to be a very paltry and temporary thing, and I'd be very glad to discover that my life was more than merely "my own".
"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today....Because if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
Angel's quote does express sentiments that we know to be good, but it is self-contradictory and illogical.If nothing we do matters, then it does NOT matter what we do. No logician could agree with Angel's statement and pretend to be logical. It's like saying, "What you eat does not matter because it matters what you eat."

I could also, by that logic, say that the smallest act of viciousness (or of anything) - is the greatest thing in the world. And that if nothing matters, by what criteria do we determine that it is great?
No, I understand your view of this. I understand how you can see it the way you do. But you are unable to see how it can be seen the way I see it. Angel's logic is perfect and brilliant. If nothing we do matters (in the objective sense that you think is important), then what we do is all there is. Surely, all there is matters! How can all there is not matter? I have this life, these decades on earth. Temporary? Yes. Paltry? No. My life is everything. Just because it will not be remembered when I and those who know me are dead, doesn't make it less. It is all there is. I mean it with all sincerity when I say it is the half-full/half-empty idea. You look at this view of life, and say, "Why bother? It means nothing." I look at this life, and say, "The meaning is every glorious moment!" And it doesn't matter how many times you tell me I am wrong to view it that way. I am right.

Nor is Angel's logic self-contradictory and illogical in the formal sense, or the construction of the sentence. You just haven't understood it yet. How to rephrase it... If the kind of meaning you believe exists, and that you insist must be embraced if one does not want to despair, does not exist, then what we do is the only thing there is. Which makes it the only thing that counts. It is deeply meaningful to do the right thing without believing there is a reward for doing it, or a consequence for not doing it. If you can understand that, then you understand what Angel said. Surely, if we can understand that "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a proper sentence, we can get through Angel's using "matters" in different ways.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Furls Fire wrote:Fisty? Are you saying I need to stop bashing you over the head with my Bible??? :lol:
Right??? I know, I'm gonna burn! I get it, already!!

:LOLS:
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Post by Prebe »

Seems like everyone missed this little gem:
Lord foul wrote:Usually the people who call science a religion want to weaken it. And usually they're religious, which is insanely ironic.
"I would have gone to the thesaurus for a more erudite word."
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Post by Furls Fire »

Fist and Faith wrote:
Furls Fire wrote:Fisty? Are you saying I need to stop bashing you over the head with my Bible??? :lol:
Right??? I know, I'm gonna burn! I get it, already!!

:LOLS:
Nonsense...you won't burn, you may get pinched tho...hehehe :lol:
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


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~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by aliantha »

Fist and Faith wrote:It is deeply meaningful to do the right thing without believing there is a reward for doing it, or a consequence for not doing it.
Covenant comes to the same conclusion. 8)
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Post by Guns »

Protestantism is not evolution in Chtistanity-it was the original form of Christianity-the Roman Catholic church didn't start untill about 300 AD.
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Post by rusmeister »

Guns wrote:Protestantism is not evolution in Chtistanity-it was the original form of Christianity-the Roman Catholic Church didn't start untill about 300 AD.
Hi Guns!
I have an objection to your statement; hope it is not seen as insulting.

The fact that you speak of the Roman Catholic Church (as if it was the entirety of the Church aside from 'Protestantism' - which at that time was called "heresy"), for me, throws your knowledge of Church history in general into doubt. What do you know of the ECFs - from Ignatius to John Chrysostom? Where is the historical record of 'the Protestantism' prior to 1518? Who determined the table of contents of the Bible that Protestants use (ie, which books were part of the canon and which were not)? Were there any other significant Church centers besides Rome?

These are things that must be dealt with before you can make claims like that.
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Post by Cagliostro »

Eh? I thought Protestantism started with Martin Luther nailing the theses to the door in the...ummm...16th century, was it? As the root of the name is "protest" which Martin Luther was doing, I figured that's when it started. Am I incorrect?

Edit: Oh, looks like Rus already took up the discussion. I'll admit my historical ignorance on this. I'm just glad to see I got the century correct.
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Post by Seven Words »

I believe he was referring to the lack of a large, established hierarchy of the Church, where most preachers emphasize personal understanding of the Gospel and a personal relationship with Jesus. At least, that's what i took him to mean.

The Catholic Church was the first and only Church for a long time. Then there was the Catholic vs. Orthodox split, then the Protestant Reformation.

edit for clarification...Church (capital C) is an institution...church (small c) is a place where people worship.
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Post by Cagliostro »

What about the ones that followed the gourd?
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Post by Seven Words »

Judean People's Front Suicide Squad!
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Post by wayfriend »

wikipedia wrote:Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the eastern Mediterranean in the mid-first century. ... State persecution ceased in the 4th century, when Constantine I issued an edict of toleration in 313. On 27 February 380, Emperor Theodosius I enacted a law establishing Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. ... The 15th-century Renaissance brought about a renewed interest in ancient and classical learning. Another major schism, the Reformation, resulted in the splintering of the Western Christendom into several Christian denominations. Martin Luther in 1517 protested against the sale of indulgences and soon moved on to deny several key points of Roman Catholic doctrine. Others like Zwingli and Calvin further criticized Roman Catholic teaching and worship. These challenges developed into the movement called Protestantism, which repudiated the primacy of the pope, the role of tradition, the seven sacraments, and other doctrines and practices. ...
Wikipedia wrote:The Catholic Church considers Pentecost to be the beginning of its own history.
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Post by Orlion »

rusmeister wrote:
Guns wrote:Protestantism is not evolution in Chtistanity-it was the original form of Christianity-the Roman Catholic Church didn't start untill about 300 AD.
Hi Guns!
I have an objection to your statement; hope it is not seen as insulting.

The fact that you speak of the Roman Catholic Church (as if it was the entirety of the Church aside from 'Protestantism' - which at that time was called "heresy"), for me, throws your knowledge of Church history in general into doubt. What do you know of the ECFs - from Ignatius to John Chrysostom? Where is the historical record of 'the Protestantism' prior to 1518? Who determined the table of contents of the Bible that Protestants use (ie, which books were part of the canon and which were not)? Were there any other significant Church centers besides Rome?

These are things that must be dealt with before you can make claims like that.
Hi Rus! :P

It's nice to see someone hint that the meaning of 'catholic' is actually 'universal.' Meaning (if I recall correctly) the early Christian Church was divided into several groups (mostly by city) and the term 'catholic' was used by early Christian writers to refer to all these groups as opposed to the Church of Rome or the Church of Antioch or of Alexanderia and so forth.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?!
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And disregards the rest
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Post by Orlion »

Fist and Faith wrote:The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?!
It's one of the many differences between churches at the time! :P
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Govern the reasoning creature, man.
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Post by Prebe »

Cag wrote:Eh? I thought Protestantism started with Martin Luther nailing the theses to the door
No. He was that black guy who kept going on about his dreams.....
"I would have gone to the thesaurus for a more erudite word."
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Post by Cagliostro »

Prebe wrote:
Cag wrote:Eh? I thought Protestantism started with Martin Luther nailing the theses to the door
No. He was that black guy who kept going on about his dreams.....
Ahh...ok. So did he nail anything up, or was he the one nailed?
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Post by Prebe »

He was like, nailed to the door by James Earl Jones I think.
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Post by Cagliostro »

Prebe wrote:He was like, nailed to the door by James Earl Jones I think.
Nailed to the door by this guy?!?!

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Wait...I'm confused.
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Post by Prebe »

No, no! That guy was INSIDE James Earl Jones.
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