Lost--Season 6 - Spoilers Abound!!!

[wayfriend]

Hey -- if the Man in Locke Monster could have grabbed Desmond, threw him in the hole, and thereby gotten off the island, why didn't he do that all those years that Desmond was living in the hatch by himself?

[Zarathustra]

In terms of answers though, I think the writers screwed us. Mysteries are great when there's ultimately answers to them - otherwise, they are just made up bullshit without any value. It's the premise that there's an explanation that drives the mystery into a plot, and makes it so much fun to theorize about, and keeps interest.

...

Well hell, if I'd known I didn't need to worry about dying pregnant women, magical numbers and the "affliction", then I could have scaled back my expectations for a smaller MIB story.

Excellent point. Unless the point of this story was some post-modern "there is no truth" point, then the unanswered mysteries are made up bullshit, not carefully crafted symbols of the limits of our knowledge. Though Lurch may disagree, I think the show clearly wasn't going that direction. They gave us a clear-cut answer about the nature of the alt timeline and the reality of the island. It drew clear lines about what was real and what was illusion.

So we're left with made-up bullshit with no intended explanation. Its like buying a puzzle and realizing that none of the piece fit together, and there is no overall picture to recreate. For the writers to have presented the story as if it meant something--and then backing up this expectation by explicitly confirming "everything means something" in interviews--well, we've been lied to as an audience.

[Good to see you around, by the way.]

Hey -- if the Man in Locke Monster could have grabbed Desmond, threw him in the hole, and thereby gotten off the island, why didn't he do that all those years that Desmond was living in the hatch by himself?

Good question. I think Des's resistance to electromagnetic radiation had to do with turning the failsafe key, so your idea would only work for those weeks he was on the island afterwards. But it's still a big question. I see no reason whatsoever that would prevent MIB from doing this ... except that he needed someone to lead him to the Source. But then we're left wondering why Jack didn't simply refuse to take MIB to the source.

This points out a larger problem of the threat of MIB. If his strategy for leaving the island was turning off the island's powers, thereby making him powerless and mortal, what would be so horrible about him leaving the island after that point?

[I'm Murrin]

I think it was pretty clear in What They Died For that Locke didn't work out Desmond's purpose until after he spoke to Widmore, and Widmore had been given that information directly by Jacob. Before that, no one knew that he was capable of it (heck, most people didn't know the source was there for him to switch off).

The order of who knew about it goes Jacob -> Widmore -> Desmond (during his exposure by Widmore) -> Locke (from Widmore) -> Ben -> Jack, with most of it happening in the penultimate episode.

[wayfriend]

I think it was pretty clear in What They Died For that Locke didn't work out Desmond's purpose until after he spoke to Widmore

Ah. Ok.

and Widmore had been given that information directly by Jacob.

Wait ... what?

[I'm Murrin]

When Widmore and Ben meet on the island in the same episode. Widmore tells Ben he was able to come back because Jacob visited him and asked him to. (And way back in The Lighthouse, Jacob said someone was coming that he had brought to the island, with Widmore's sub showing up at the very end of the episode, implying it was him and thus close to confirming Widmore's story.)

We can guess that Widmore was visited by Jacob the same day that Hurley was, since that's also when Ben put Desmond in hospital and Widmore showed up to collect him.

[Kil Tyme]

Let a few days to let it soak in...plus busy. I recall Cag's thing about Jack's eye closing at the end of the show some months ago and I said that would be a great ending...so, good call, Cag!

Many questions answered, tons left to never be answered, so I have accepted that. We are left with falted demi-gods and people who did the best they could in the end, I suppose. I really wanted that numbers thing answered, but nope. So, season 6 flash-sideways was puratory and the church part was, as I read elsewhere, a big Limbo Facebook. Very moving sideways when folks started to remember, so now I can watch that a second time and appreciate it alot more. And Jack's dying (maybe) with the dog next to him was a perfect full circle ending. It's the best ending I think they could have done for this show; got your martyrs, happy endings, bitter sweet endings and smiling faces and the moving on to who knows what in the end: the final big question we all have in RL.

Bravo! I consider all my time with this show well spent.

[lucimay]

But why couldn't pregnant women survive on the island?

heh. that's an easy one.

dead people can't have babies?

Second--methinks the series made it clear what the Sideways timeline was. It was a timeless place for these people to work out some issues, heal from their time and tribulations on Earth, find each other again before moving on to what-ever-it-is that is Beyond. I was terribly moved to see that Ben decided to stay for awhile, with those that weren't ready (like Ana Lucia). I was reminded of the Boddisatva--the Buddha of Infinite Compassion who has achieved Enlightenment but refuses Nirvana, for now. Instead he turns to the rest of creation and says "You first--I will not leave the least of you alone." Well, that and Severus Snape--unhappy boy, bitter and ruthless man, loser at love who had the courage to change, and did.

Which brings up a bit of speculation on my part. The Valenzetti Equation. Remember that? Remember how the DHARMA Initiative was created to save humanity from that terrible mathematical prediction of doomsday? DHARMA failed. But do you suppose Ben and Hurley might manage to do it, especially with the powers of the Island at their disposal? Methinks Hurley was a far better choice of Protector than Jacob ever could be. Hurley had lived among humanity, had loved and failed and his kindness was not academic.

It also seems oh-so-fitting that the MIB had no name. After all, darkness is really just the absence of light.

All about the journey, and the people who make that journey.

yes. /nod nod. thanks zahir, agree with all of this.

[Zarathustra]

I don't think the entire flash-sideways world was created by the islanders as an afterlife. I mean, if it IS the land of the dead, then what, Juliet and Jack have an undead son there?

The son wasn't real, I thought. Didn't Kate tell Jack he didn't have a son?

This show has a lot of conceptual physics underwriting it. One interpretation of quantum mechanics is that every possible choice for a particle's position in space is real at some parallel world. When Juliet said, "It worked," she meant that the detonation had caused a quantum branching of some kind to take place so that a universe was created in which Flight 815 didn't crash. But like with what happened to Desmond when he used the fail-safe key, the kind of power involved in this branching (nuking the island's light) allowed for the consciousness of the people in the different worlds to be set free from its ordinary temporal constraints.

"Moving on" was escaping those constraints in their entirety, maybe.

I like this. It would be so much better than the writers literally saying that there is a purgatory in which all humans, even non-island folk meet. And it would tie it directly to the events of the rest of the series.

The more I think about it, maybe you're right. Go back to Faraday's "constant vs variables" speech in season 5, when he convinced Jack to set off the bomb. Maybe everyone met up in the "afterlife" in a timeless place (no more variables) becuase they had each found their constant. Maybe that's why Eloise was worried that Desmond would take Faraday (because Hume was Faraday's constant), but then Hume doesn't because he leaves with his constant (Penny).

But then who was Christian's constant?

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I don't think the entire flash-sideways world was created by the islanders as an afterlife. I mean, if it IS the land of the dead, then what, Juliet and Jack have an undead son there?

The son wasn't real, I thought. Didn't Kate tell Jack he didn't have a son?

I thought that was just Locke trying to trigger Jack's memory, maybe, like with how Sun and Jin didn't know English before they remembered the other world.

[Orlion]

I don't think the entire flash-sideways world was created by the islanders as an afterlife. I mean, if it IS the land of the dead, then what, Juliet and Jack have an undead son there?

The son wasn't real, I thought. Didn't Kate tell Jack he didn't have a son?

I thought that was just Locke trying to trigger Jack's memory, maybe, like with how Sun and Jin didn't know English before they remembered the other world.

More specifically, one could argue that Locke was just reacting to his memories of Jack on the island, where he didn't have a son.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Another thing "The End" reminded me of (before the last scene, even) was when Dumbledore tells Harry about the great mystery of love. If you watch the J. J. Abrams TED talk, you learn about how he has this present which is a box with a question mark on it. He's never opened it because the question of what's in the box is the REAL present. Now think of the unresolved mysteries in Lost. Was the island's light (in part) the power of love? (Everyone has it inside of them, but some always want more than they really need?) A great mystery that unites us across space and time (or, in the case of a sick man like Jacob's brother, infects you with living damnation)?

I don't know. There's a literary technique known as "show, don't tell": instead of having a reveal scene (or just a reveal of any kind) in the form of a character (think Infelice

Spoiler

re: the shadow on the heart of her people

) telling us in some kind of speech what the reader/viewer wants to know, we have a scene (or series of scenes) that allows us to deduce the answer for ourselves. I'm pretty confident that a lot of the answers to Lost will become available to us if we apply that technique to the show. Maybe we won't know the definite truth, but the range of possible truths will be limited, and it'll be up to us to fix on the ones we like best (if we want to fix on any in the end).

[sindatur]

I don't think the entire flash-sideways world was created by the islanders as an afterlife. I mean, if it IS the land of the dead, then what, Juliet and Jack have an undead son there?

The son wasn't real, I thought. Didn't Kate tell Jack he didn't have a son?

This show has a lot of conceptual physics underwriting it. One interpretation of quantum mechanics is that every possible choice for a particle's position in space is real at some parallel world. When Juliet said, "It worked," she meant that the detonation had caused a quantum branching of some kind to take place so that a universe was created in which Flight 815 didn't crash. But like with what happened to Desmond when he used the fail-safe key, the kind of power involved in this branching (nuking the island's light) allowed for the consciousness of the people in the different worlds to be set free from its ordinary temporal constraints.

"Moving on" was escaping those constraints in their entirety, maybe.

I like this. It would be so much better than the writers literally saying that there is a purgatory in which all humans, even non-island folk meet. And it would tie it directly to the events of the rest of the series.

The more I think about it, maybe you're right. Go back to Faraday's "constant vs variables" speech in season 5, when he convinced Jack to set off the bomb. Maybe everyone met up in the "afterlife" in a timeless place (no more variables) becuase they had each found their constant. Maybe that's why Eloise was worried that Desmond would take Faraday (because Hume was Faraday's constant), but then Hume doesn't because he leaves with his constant (Penny).

But then who was Christian's constant?

Excellent, it was a single person (wether direct contact or thinking of seeing/thinking of them) that "woke" each person up.

Mighara Sovmadhi, I agree, that was Locke trying to spark understanding in Jack... by letting him remember he didn't have a son

Triple Post coming up, sorry.

[sindatur]

Found this on ABC LOST Site (Which was linked to Lostpedia [The Encylopedia of LOST]), supposedly words from someone at Bad Robot with his take and clarifying things. Don't know the original source other than that. It makes sense to me. Rousseau is mispelled several times, so don't know if that's a transcribing error or an indication someone made it up, but, it does make sense with what we saw, and helps clarify things, even if it's only someone's theory, and not real information from a Bad Robot employee who is on the inside and knows real information.

forum.lostpedia.com/someone-b...e-t59261.html?

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

(Conitnued next post)

[sindatur]

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.


In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

[Zarathustra]

I'm pretty confident that a lot of the answers to Lost will become available to us if we apply that technique to the show.

You know, I think you might be right.

Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben.

This would explain why Ben wasn't healed but Rose and Locke were. Jacob didn't let him be healed so that he would need Jack ... thereby preserving his candidate. And to manipulate Jack into performing surgery, Ben would need to keep Kate and Sawyer alive, too. Maybe you guys can think of other reasons why the rest weren't killed.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot.

What about Desmond, Penny, Juliet, Bernard, and Libbie? That's 5 holes in this theory by the supposed "insider." It sounds good, but this can't be for real.

[sindatur]

I'm pretty confident that a lot of the answers to Lost will become available to us if we apply that technique to the show.

You know, I think you might be right.

Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben.

This would explain why Ben wasn't healed but Rose and Locke were. Jacob didn't let him be healed so that he would need Jack ... thereby preserving his candidate. And to manipulate Jack into performing surgery, Ben would need to keep Kate and Sawyer alive, too. Maybe you guys can think of other reasons why the rest weren't killed.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot.

What about Desmond, Penny, Juliet, Bernard, and Libbie? That's 5 holes in this theory by the supposed "insider." It sounds good, but this can't be for real.

Bernard was in the Bathroom.

Desmond's special and the rules don't apply to him (and was in the hatch in S1, and shone the light ). Penny's his Constant.

Rose and Bernard are Constants.

James and Juliette.

Libbe and Hugo.

I'm not seeing a problem aside from Desmond, who the rules don't apply to?

But, if we need to place Desmond in S1, He shone the light up outta the hatch in S1, before we met him, and he's the one in the Sideways-verse that shone the light on many of the ones who came to "see"

[Harbinger]

Soap opera. A good soap opera, but still a soap opera. At least a soap opera with an ending- even if it was lame. You think the writers ever saw The Others.

I remember hearing lots of people saying that if it was a dream or something they were going to be very upset.

[Zarathustra]

Sind, I'm not saying I don't like it. It was actually quite insightful. I just don't think it's real.

If you listen to the extras and the commentaries for the Blu-rays, it's clear that the writers didn't know what or who was in the hatch until after season 1 was over. There was no way they knew about Desmond and Penny at the time of the pilot. The other people being constants of season 1 people is true, but seems to contradict the claim that only season 1 people are present. Perhaps a sentence or two covering that contradiction would have helped.

Why didn't Michael redeem himself? He died to save the others! What did Ben do? Work for Hugo? Doesn't seem like a comparable sacrifice. That's what he always wanted to do anyway. That's more like a reward. If Sawyer, for instance, deserved to be there after being tricked into killing a man, then so does Michael. Sawyer didn't sacrifice himself like Michael, either. What did Sawyer do for the island? How did he redeem himself?

Like I said, the article has some very beautiful interpretations, but I'm doubtful about its legitimacy.

[sindatur]

I'm doubtful about the legitimacy myself, as pointed out in the beginning of the posts, with my critique of Rousseau's name several times.

Mostly you're right Sawyer was presnt at many many events in LOST, but, what he actually contributed to the final outcome was pretty small, though, there are many times he got other people into or out of situations that pushed them along their path...Maybe?

Again, I'm sussing out and debating the theory/explanation, not defending the legitimacy of the word "Explanation"

[Zarathustra]

Soap opera. A good soap opera, but still a soap opera. At least a soap opera with an ending- even if it was lame. You think the writers ever saw The Others.

I remember hearing lots of people saying that if it was a dream or something they were going to be very upset.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a soap opera, but it was suspiciously similar to the Dream Season of Dallas.

The writers said early on that it wasn't purgatory (even though there were clues--like Sawyer reading a manuscript by a made up author, Gary Troup, an anagram for "purgatory"). But then they give us a kind of purgatory. That's not the same as it all being a dream, but it's too damn close for comfort, in my opinion.

Again, I'm starting to warm up to the finale, and may eventually come around to loving it if I can settle my own questions ... but the writers lied.