The Sangorgons

[Endymion9]

I was happy to see the sandgorgons show up in FR, as Nom was always one of my favorite characters.

I will be unhappy if the story evolves that the rent Raver is actually controlling and herding the sandgorgons. I can see bits and pieces of his hatred influencing them, but thing it is unrealistic that he can retain his sentience and the bits of him can collectively communicate to control the sandgorgons. So i'm hoping SRD doesn't go that direction.

If it is Foul using the shreds of the ravers memory to herd them that's acceptable. But not that the ravers sentience survived the rending and worst of all would be him recollecting his pieces and coming back. To me it would be unmaking the great scene in WGW where Nom and Homminscrave destroyed the raver. Similar to Star Trek bringing Spock back to life.

I didn't think of, but like the idea of them being in the land to rend and consume the last two ravers. However, with all three ravers within them, would hate to see them turn totally evil.

[littledaniele]

Hmm. I didn't notice the part about the Sandgorgons already being in the Land when Linden called them. Presumably they came rather recently since the Giants tell of them leaving the Desert while they (the Giants) were in Bhrathairain with Longwrath, and hence they followed them to the Land. So I wonder what summoned them? Did they, like Ranyhyn, hear Linden's summons across time? Or was there something else involved?

The answer is between their tale, and GaleWrath's. They escaped the doom, and then later, breached the Wall and strode into the sea, presumable making straight for the Land. Their motivation was the shredded essence of Samadhi Raver, which (through its memories) had shown the they could rule themselves, and gain their own suzerainity. I think it actually pointed them to the Southron Wastes, at Doriender Corashev. Therefore, They werent summoned. The scraps gave them their own 'Quality of Mind' for which now they repaid Linden by answering her summons. They now have some intelligence and are free to act as they will. I think they ultimately will be corrupted entirely be a foe of some great might for Linden and TC... We havent seen the last of them.

As for Galewrath, I wonder if the departing Sandgorgons somehow activated the sword he carries, since it was built to slay them. Possibly its drawing him to the land as well as his Earthsight.

I am glad someone mentioned the sword! In the last chapter of FR the Harrow talked about the sword when Linden asked him if Longwrath was possessed and about the Wraiths not letting him into Andelain because Longwrath was trying to kill Linden. Instead of answering her he talked about the sword. He said

"His blade holds some interest. It was forged at a time millenia past, when Kasreyn of the Gyre feared the Sangorgons, having not yet devised their Doom. He hungered for a weapon puissant to slay those feral beasts. Therefore he wrought the flamberge, aided by the croyel. It was fearsome in the hands of a knowing wielder. Yet its purpose ended when the Sandgorgons were bound to their Doom. Deprived of use. its theurgy fades."

I think this is key with regard to the Sandgorgons and will definitely have a part to play in the coming books!

[Atrium]

Maybe the Sandgorgons will be a force to counter the Skurj? I get the feeling they would be evenly matched. I dunno how they could be persuaded to fight, maybe Covenant still has a hold on Nom?

I too would be kind of dissapointed to find out that the rent Raver could control them still, would seem like a kind of cheat. It felt totally fitting that Gibbon-raver should be rent as a punishment for all his evildoings.

[Vraith]

Maybe the Sandgorgons will be a force to counter the Skurj? I get the feeling they would be evenly matched. I dunno how they could be persuaded to fight, maybe Covenant still has a hold on Nom?

I too would be kind of dissapointed to find out that the rent Raver could control them still, would seem like a kind of cheat. It felt totally fitting that Gibbon-raver should be rent as a punishment for all his evildoings.

I may have said elsewhere...I don't think [and I hope I'm right] that the Raver pieces have any will/consciousness/control, it's something akin to the "moral poison" in TC, turned their nature...which has always been for contention, and corrupted it towards conquest. Of course, we all know what LF can do with beings with such desires.
Their is almost certainly plot evolving around Sandies and skurj [and maybe the blade]
I'm holding on to a hope that, what ever happens in the interim, the sandies will be on the right side at the end.

[Atrium]

I'm holding on to a hope that, what ever happens in the interim, the sandies will be on the right side at the end.

I sort of think they will. They have an air of "noble beasts" around them. Savage but not malicious. And Donaldson says in several places something along the lines that savagery is not evil in itself, but another expression of nature. Whereas the Skurj seem to be very unnatural and malicious.

Just to throw something else into the pot: What of the restless Fire Lions? We are told they are also on the rampage, disturbed by Kastenessen having moved into their home base. What are the odds of a climactic battle Sandgorgons vs Skurj vs Fire Lions ?

[Solar]

I've always wondered if there was some connection (shared ancestry?) between the Fire Lions and the skurj, what with them both being beasts of flama/lava and all...

[High Lord Tolkien]

good thread to read if you missed it regarding Fire Lions.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... ns&start=0

[Atrium]

After reading that im even more inclined to believe that they will make an appearance, maybe to "fight fire with fire"

I always liked the fire lions, personally i was all for Elena using her power of command to send them to wreak havok on Foul, or at least his army. Much more coherent than the silly notion of summoning Kevin from the grave.

And they are connected to Mount Thunder, one of Donaldsons most important stages for the action in the Land. Lost Deep anyone ?

[sammadhi]

the sandgorgons were in the land looking for a place to "hold sway". linden spoke of dorishev but also suggested mount thunder. we werent told where they were going but mount thunder was closer for them to try. we still arent given fouls location. hell, he could be hiding in glimmermere for all we know. if he is in either place the gorgons go, he will do his best to manipulate them. im seeing another card for foul, but that sword is a splinter in the back of my mind. if that piece of work i made for gorgons, why did longwrath take it? he could kill linden with 1 backhand. if you notice, when they got of the hill after the 18 skurj attacked, longwrath followed after linden, his first thought was the sword. he reached for it and realized its absence. then stopped and retraced its location then went in pursuit. that blade has a mystery that is connected directly with linden, even if it wasnt originally made for that purpose.

[Vraith]

Going back a bit, the skurj, if my memory works right, weren't originally either malicious or unnatural, just particularly hazardous to living/thinking beings.
Under Kasts influence, however, they are something else entirely...but that's Kast's fault, not their own.

And I agree, Samma...that sword is going to matter.

[sammadhi]

your right, the skurj aren't evil, but kastensens influence has them. of course, foul influences kat. essentially foul has the skurj, the firelions are presumably on the good guys side but that's undetermined. however those gorgons are anybodies guess. good evil and neutral is the stage setting with those 3.

[Relayer]

I'm inclined to agree that the skurj are simply very dangerous in their nature... yet, they're so dangerous that an Elohim was Appointed to protect the Earth against them. Makes me wonder if something influenced them, or maybe affected them to become so ravenous that they'd threaten the earth.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The Skurj weren't intelligent but they were unnatural and evil as is evident to anyone who looks with the heath-sense on them. Kestenessen added coherence and direction to their random unnatural actions (of consuming earthpower and multiplying).

As for Longwrath and his sword I believe he is under the influence of one of the ravers. Both he and Joan have the uncanny ability to open their handcuffs. We know Joan is controlled by a raver(*). Longwrath is controlled by the other. He needs his sword because the ravers have grown fearful of the Sandgorgons that killed their brother and want a protection against them.

(*) I originally thought she was possessed by Lord Foul himself when she was raving in Linden's hospital and showing her supernatural escape capabilities but as we see there are two people with this ability so Lord Foul can't posses both of them at the same time and when we see Joan in the Land she is controlled by a raver and not Lord Foul.

[shadowbinding shoe]

About the honor of these new Sandgorgons. I thought it was telling that the Sandgorgons marched through the Bhrathairain city destroying its Wall in the process.

When Thomas Covenant makes his deal with Nom one of the conditions he sets is that the Sandgorgons will never attack Bhrathairain city and its denizens again. Nom readily agrees saying that that is only a tiny piece of their desert and holds nothing of value to the sandgorgons.

And yet when these new Snadgorgons want to go to the Land they break this promise when all it would take to keep it is make a little detour around the city. I think it shows that while they respect other powerful beings like the ringbearer they show none to gnats like the Bhrathairan people and don't consider promises concerning them important.