"Why didn't they kill me?"

[thewormoftheworld'send]

...Linden asked the Mahdoubt in Garroting Deep.

Answer -

"Because that wouldn't be sporting!"

Just kidding!


But not really.

[wayfriend]

It states somewhere that they needed Linden in order to reach Earthroot without interference; as long as she was with them, the Elohim would not try to stop them. The Elohim believed that she would stop them, and so they didn't need to do anything, and so did not interfere.

Once they reached Earthroot, they did try to kill her. And failed.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It states somewhere that they needed Linden in order to reach Earthroot without interference; as long as she was with them, the Elohim would not try to stop them. The Elohim believed that she would stop them, and so they didn't need to do anything, and so did not interfere.

Once they reached Earthroot, they did try to kill her. And failed.

Let me put this as gently as possible: we're both wrong.

But you're forgetting that Roger bided his time answering questions while Linden recuperated. That's why Linden asked, "Why didn't they kill me?" They did have plenty of opportunity at that moment.

The purpose of the entire Earthroot journey (which parallels motives in the Second to the Last Chrons) was to manipulate Linden into exerting power. The only difference between this Chrons and the Last (besides the Ringwielder's identity) is that Linden doesn't need to be infected with Venom, she is quite willing to exert any power required and then some.

However, Roger miscalculated. Linden found herself, with the aid of Earthblood, capable of wielding enough defensive power with the Staff alone. The real threat to the Arch is the ring, but she had no use for it on this occasion, much to Roger's chagrin.

Roger has no intention of killing Linden. That would be too easy - and yes, it wouldn't be sporting, but that's not all there is. It is much more satisfying to watch as Linden herself brings down the Arch.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It states somewhere that they needed Linden in order to reach Earthroot without interference; as long as she was with them, the Elohim would not try to stop them. The Elohim believed that she would stop them, and so they didn't need to do anything, and so did not interfere.

I've addressed this point before. Roger is a manipulative liar. We don't know that any Elohim were even aware of their presence, but that's beside the point.

On a related note, recall that Roger asked her why it was necessary to bring her back to that time in the first place. His answer was a half-truth. It's true that Earthrootstair was entirely blocked, the Earthblood out of reach, after the incident with Dead Kevin Landwaster in the Third to the Last Chrons. But there is another more important reason. If Linden does anything to cause a paradox in history, then the Arch will immediately shatter. Bringing her into the past with that much power was a risky venture, but an opportunity for Roger.

Some may say that she did alter history by causing an earthquake that sundered the Skyweir. But it was destined to happen in a few years anyway.

[wayfriend]

But you're forgetting that Roger bided his time answering questions while Linden recuperated.

I was answering the question asked. The question wasn't: why didn't Roger try to kill Linden for that one or two minute window between when he was revealed and when he did try to kill Linden.

They did have plenty of opportunity at that moment.

Did they? Why is it only Linden needs to marshall resources? Perhaps they were surprised by the Command and needed a moment to come up with a response?

The purpose of the entire Earthroot journey (which parallels motives in the Second to the Last Chrons) was to manipulate Linden into exerting power.

Of course you think I am wrong; I am not using your heretofore unmentioned assumptions.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

But you're forgetting that Roger bided his time answering questions while Linden recuperated.

I was answering the question asked. The question wasn't: why didn't Roger try to kill Linden for that one or two minute window between when he was revealed and when he did try to kill Linden.

They did have plenty of opportunity at that moment.

Did they? Why is it only Linden needs to marshall resources?

Because Roger's laval counter-offensive was so devastating.

The purpose of the entire Earthroot journey (which parallels motives in the Second to the Last Chrons) was to manipulate Linden into exerting power.

Of course you think I am wrong; I am not using your assumptions.

I'm not using assumptions either, only listening to the Mahdoubt's wisdom. Or did the Mahdoubt only rely on assumptions? She told the tale in Garroting Deep before Wildwood appeared after Linden wandered out of Rivenrock.

[Barnetto]

Well, it is stated that "...the Mahdoubt may speculate without hazard...", so it isn't necessarily clear that the Mahdoubt is right in her interpretation.

The Mahdoubt also concludes that "the chief desire of the lady's betrayers was the lady's pain", which certainly suggests that Roger/J achieved their aim ultimately and that Plan B or Plan C or Plan D involved them being revealed (or revealing themselves) to her.

What I'm not clear about (understatement of the year - there are so many things that I'm not clear about!) is the Mahdoubt's speculation that "she might have slain her betrayers with wild magic. That they assuredly did not desire." If Plan A or Plan B involved Linden using white gold once Roger/Croyel had been revealed so breaking the arch, how does the Mahdoubt's speculation fit....? Is she suggesting that was never one of Roger's plans? That ultimately the aim (barring Linden breaking the Arch through time paradox) was simply to reveal themselves so that she would be so pained that vengeance becomes her one and only (and extremely dangerous) motivation in future.....?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Well, it is stated that "...the Mahdoubt may speculate without hazard...", so it isn't necessarily clear that the Mahdoubt is right in her interpretation.

The Mahdoubt also concludes that "the chief desire of the lady's betrayers was the lady's pain", which certainly suggests that Roger/J achieved their aim ultimately and that Plan B or Plan C or Plan D involved them being revealed (or revealing themselves) to her.

What I'm not clear about (understatement of the year - there are so many things that I'm not clear about!) is the Mahdoubt's speculation that "she might have slain her betrayers with wild magic. That they assuredly did not desire." If Plan A or Plan B involved Linden using white gold once Roger/Croyel had been revealed so breaking the arch, how does the Mahdoubt's speculation fit....? Is she suggesting that was never one of Roger's plans? That ultimately the aim (barring Linden breaking the Arch through time paradox) was simply to reveal themselves so that she would be so pained that vengeance becomes her one and only (and extremely dangerous) motivation in future.....?

The Mahdoubt reveals (or speculates) that Roger desired Linden to avail herself of wild magic and create a time paradox, but that she proved herself more than worthy using the Staff of Law alone. That is how Roger and the croyel were routed out of the mountain.

[Barnetto]

The Mahdoubt reveals (or speculates) that Roger desired Linden to avail herself of wild magic and create a time paradox, but that she proved herself more than worthy using the Staff of Law alone. That is how Roger and the croyel were routed out of the mountain.

Yes, but there is certainly a suggestion that one of the ways that Roger/Croyel consider that may occur is through Linden resorting to white gold to stop them. (The fact that she didn't actually need to isn't the issue.) How does the suggestion that they considered she might resort to using white gold in the Skyweir tally with the Mahdoubt's speculation that they didn't want her to use white gold against them on the basis that they would be wiped out?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The Mahdoubt reveals (or speculates) that Roger desired Linden to avail herself of wild magic and create a time paradox, but that she proved herself more than worthy using the Staff of Law alone. That is how Roger and the croyel were routed out of the mountain.

Yes, but there is certainly a suggestion that one of the ways that Roger/Croyel consider that may occur is through Linden resorting to white gold to stop them. (The fact that she didn't actually need to isn't the issue.) How does the suggestion that they considered she might resort to using white gold in the Skyweir tally with the Mahdoubt's speculation that they didn't want her to use white gold against them on the basis that they would be wiped out?

I don't recall the Mahdoubt saying anything like that.

First of all, the Mahdoubt did not claim to be speculating so much as "speculating without hazard" and for a reason.

Yet the Mahdoubt may speculate without hazard—
yes, assuredly—if she speaks only of that which the lady has properly heard, or which she might comprehend unaided, were she whole in spirit."

This "speculation" leads her to conclude that Roger desired to cause Linden enough pain to freely cede over to him the white gold. Furthermore,

And if they could not obtain its surrender, they desired the lady to exert the ring's force in the name of her suffering under Melenkurion Skyweir, either for their aid or against their purpose. In such an outcome, the Staff of Law and the EarthBlood and wild magic would exceed
the lady's flesh, and Time would be truly endangered.

But to their surprise, "the lady" did not require the use of various theurgies after all, only earthpower.

[Barnetto]

Nor could she be engaged willingly in combat that would endanger Time. With the Staff of Law she might perchance have healed any harm. And she might have slain her betrayers with wild magic. That they assuredly did not desire.

As you've pointed out, elsewhere the Mahdoubt speculates that they wanted her to "exert the ring's force" against their purpose. I was just expressing my confusion as to how the two speculations tally.

[Barnetto]

It states somewhere that they needed Linden in order to reach Earthroot without interference; as long as she was with them, the Elohim would not try to stop them. The Elohim believed that she would stop them, and so they didn't need to do anything, and so did not interfere.

Once they reached Earthroot, they did try to kill her. And failed.

There is a suggestion, now that I've read that section again, that could be taken to suggest that Roger did not actually seek to kill Linden :

But Roger held back. His desire to crush her entailed something more than mere death.

I know that one interpretation is that he simply wanted to torment her before killing her. That "mere death" means death plus more - ie "not only death". He is simply cruel and murderous.

But I think it also possible to read that as saying that "mere death" wasn't sufficient for his purpose. Killing her wouldn't achieve their purpose. That would fit the Mahdoubt's speculation that the purpose all along was to pain her (sufficiently that she will go on to reek havoc in the name of retribution?) - and the way to pain her was to reveal the truth of the possession of Jerry and Roger's misuse of Covenant's persona. So, though her use of the Power of Command to Roger and J to reveal themselves was effective, maybe it was effectively what they wanted anyway....?

I think that there may well be something in WWE's speculations on the speculations of the Mahdoubt.

Ultimately was the purpose of the whole Skyweir trip to turn Linden into the sort of hard-hearted person willing to wield both white gold and earthpower together in the name of retribution/revenge, no matter the cost to the Land?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Nor could she be engaged willingly in combat that would endanger Time. With the Staff of Law she might perchance have healed any harm. And she might have slain her betrayers with wild magic. That they assuredly did not desire.

As you've pointed out, elsewhere the Mahdoubt speculates that they wanted her to "exert the ring's force" against their purpose. I was just expressing my confusion as to how the two speculations tally.

Well, I would speculate that they don't want to be killed in the process.

[Savor Dam]

No, they certainly do not want to be killed. Roger clearly has other aspirations, which do not involve his untimely demise...and the tenacity with which croyel cling to life is well established.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Ultimately was the purpose of the whole Skyweir trip to turn Linden into the sort of hard-hearted person willing to wield both white gold and earthpower together in the name of retribution/revenge, no matter the cost to the Land?

I responded to the easy question, now for the difficult one. Did Roger have a new plan in case the Skyweir ploy failed? I don't know how far ahead this chessmaster plans his strategy. He is just as capable of acting on the fly, even if the new strategy is simply to "get the hell out of Dodge" and regroup.

Or perhaps he was thinking, even if the Skyweir ploy fails, then Linden will at least be licking her wounds, even better, she will be more desperate to save her son thus more apt than ever to use her power in unwise ways. So it was a win-win situation for Roger, assuming that he gets out of it alive. Yet another Xanatos Gambit in the Chrons.