Elohim and the Power of Command

[Thorhammerhand]

The Elohim are incarnate earthpower. - FACT

The Blood Of The Earth is incarnate earthpower. - FACT

Consuming the Blood Of The Earth bestows the Power Of Command. - FACT

Do the Elohim need the Power of Command? (Yes or NO). If Yes, what for?

[shadowbinding shoe]

What do you mean 'need'?

[Holsety]

Hasn't it also been said that the ranyhyn are earthpower incarnate? I think that this simply means that the elohim are manifestations of earthpower, not that they are somehow equivalent to all other manifestations of earthpower (or that they can harness all those abilities that other forms of earthpower have).

[High Lord Tolkien]

I agree with Holsety.

[Relayer]

That's similar to a question I've posed before... if they are Earthpower incarnate, how does that relate the Elohim to:

-- the Earthpower responding to Berek (via the Fire Lions), and

-- to the Haruchai (in causing their vow of serving the Lords and Land to become The Vow, negating sleep and death)?

Did the Elohim have a hand in these events? Holsety's answer provides a way to not need their involvement.

(I'm sure Donaldson's answer would be "it's not part of the story I needed to create.")

[wayfriend]

Right. You just need to look at it this way: is there Earthpower other than what the Elohim embody? It sure looks to me like the answer is yes.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Doesn't Amok say during their journey into Melenkurin Abatha that in the distant past before Berek time (when the forest was whole and th Elohim not so reclusive) the diffused magic waters would reach a throne room/receiving chamber where questers could be granted wishes from the Elohim who sat in attendance there?

[wayfriend]

Amok had only feasted with the Elohim, and learned from them songs.

[3rd warrior on the left]

The Elohim are Earthpower incarnate so as I see it they embody, at some remove, Law, as interpreted by their Wyrd.
The Power of Command permits the breaking of Law, with subsequent well known consequences.
In a situation that would drive a human to seek to use the Power of Command, the Eohim, having as much time as they need, would find a solutioin to that situation that did not involve breaking a Law, dispatching an Appointed to do whatever needed to be done.
So, although I think the Elohim could use the Power of Command they would not need to.

my 2 brain-cells worth

[Krazy Kat]

Hile Troy also had the Power of Command.

I wonder if Amok would have led Elena and Covenant somewhere else had there not been a war taking place.

[Savor Dam]

Being Krazy, Kat?

I suspect so. The command power of a Warmark over the Warward, even enhanced by the broader authority granted Troy during the extrordinary circumstances of IEW, is a pittance of Power compared to that bestowed to those who imbibe the Blood of the Earth.

As for Amok leading elsewhere, my interpretation is that he was made only to lead to that one place, given the fulfillment of his conditions. If they were not fulfilled, he would lead nowhere, just as those who dared Damelion's Gate without proper escort would be led nowhere.

Again, my understanding. Listening for other views...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Being Krazy, Kat?

I suspect so. The command power of a Warmark over the Warward, even enhanced by the broader authority granted Troy during the extrordinary circumstances of IEW, is a pittance of Power compared to that bestowed to those who imbibe the Blood of the Earth.

As for Amok leading elsewhere, my interpretation is that he was made only to lead to that one place, given the fulfillment of his conditions. If they were not fulfilled, he would lead nowhere, just as those who dared Damelion's Gate without proper escort would be led nowhere.

Again, my understanding. Listening for other views...

I agree. Amok was indifferent to any needs beyond those set by his creator: to await the Krill's awakening, and then to serve as the Way to the EarthBlood.

[Krazy Kat]

Being Krazy, Kat?

I suspect so. The command power of a Warmark over the Warward, even enhanced by the broader authority granted Troy during the extrordinary circumstances of IEW, is a pittance of Power compared to that bestowed to those who imbibe the Blood of the Earth.

As for Amok leading elsewhere, my interpretation is that he was made only to lead to that one place, given the fulfillment of his conditions. If they were not fulfilled, he would lead nowhere, just as those who dared Damelion's Gate without proper escort would be led nowhere.

Again, my understanding. Listening for other views...

I agree. Amok was indifferent to any needs beyond those set by his creator: to await the Krill's awakening, and then to serve as the Way to the EarthBlood.

As soon as I hit SUBMIT post I realized it was a ludicrous idea. The consequences of events in The Illearth War move like the wheels in a mechanism: Elena, the krill, Covenant, Amok, etc...

It was an idea based on how Amok had left the Close to survey events in the Land, and then returned to Revelwood with (new?) purpose. What caused this change of plan? Was there more to it than just the presence of white gold in the Land?

I think the first time the 'power of command' was mentioned in TIEW, (i could be wrong, not sure), was - in chapter 5 Dukkha - when Covenant opened his door to Troy. But this was more to do with Troy's tone of voice than with his leadership of the Warward, and the Seventh Ward of Kevin's lore.

So yeah, it's only me playing 'loony tunes' - please ignore!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Being Krazy, Kat?

I suspect so. The command power of a Warmark over the Warward, even enhanced by the broader authority granted Troy during the extrordinary circumstances of IEW, is a pittance of Power compared to that bestowed to those who imbibe the Blood of the Earth.

As for Amok leading elsewhere, my interpretation is that he was made only to lead to that one place, given the fulfillment of his conditions. If they were not fulfilled, he would lead nowhere, just as those who dared Damelion's Gate without proper escort would be led nowhere.

Again, my understanding. Listening for other views...

I agree. Amok was indifferent to any needs beyond those set by his creator: to await the Krill's awakening, and then to serve as the Way to the EarthBlood.

As soon as I hit SUBMIT post I realized it was a ludicrous idea. The consequences of events in The Illearth War move like the wheels in a mechanism: Elena, the krill, Covenant, Amok, etc...

It was an idea based on how Amok had left the Close to survey events in the Land, and then returned to Revelwood with (new?) purpose. What caused this change of plan? Was there more to it than just the presence of white gold in the Land?

True, Amok observed the Land's peril and need. His "programming" allowed for some flexibility.

[wayfriend]

Being Krazy, Kat?

I suspect so. The command power of a Warmark over the Warward, even enhanced by the broader authority granted Troy during the extrordinary circumstances of IEW, is a pittance of Power compared to that bestowed to those who imbibe the Blood of the Earth.

Krazy Kat is not entirely crazy on this one.

There are three references to "the power of command" in TIW, before Bannor reveals the name of the Seventh Ward.

"Come on," Troy said. His tone was full of the power of command. "The Lords are doing something you ought to see."

She recognized the potential value of his tactical skill, put faith in it; she gave his voice the power of command. Because of her, he was now giving orders of great risk, and leading the Warward in a cause for which he would not be ashamed to die.

The contrast to his own weakness humbled Troy. He turned away to look out over the Plains again. The ponderous movement of Lord Foul's hordes continued as before, and at the sight he felt a resurgence of panic. But he held onto his power of command, gripped it to keep his shame at bay.

All of these references give Troy the power of command. It is a power found in his voice. It is a power granted by Elena.

Coincidence? It cannot be. It's more than just thematic, because it's in reference to Troy and no one else.

Troy does not foresee all the ends that his power of command will lead to. either.

[Vraith]

There are three references to "the power of command" in TIW, before Bannor reveals the name of the Seventh Ward.

"Come on," Troy said. His tone was full of the power of command. "The Lords are doing something you ought to see."

She recognized the potential value of his tactical skill, put faith in it; she gave his voice the power of command. Because of her, he was now giving orders of great risk, and leading the Warward in a cause for which he would not be ashamed to die.

The contrast to his own weakness humbled Troy. He turned away to look out over the Plains again. The ponderous movement of Lord Foul's hordes continued as before, and at the sight he felt a resurgence of panic. But he held onto his power of command, gripped it to keep his shame at bay.

All of these references give Troy the power of command. It is a power found in his voice. It is a power granted by Elena.

Coincidence? It cannot be. It's more than just thematic, because it's in reference to Troy and no one else.

Troy does not foresee all the ends that his power of command will lead to. either.

Huh...given that many repetitions, there almost has to be at least a symbolic parallel...especially since both Elena and Troy end up with a desperate and secret plan, one that would horrify if revealed too soon.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Being Krazy, Kat?

I suspect so. The command power of a Warmark over the Warward, even enhanced by the broader authority granted Troy during the extrordinary circumstances of IEW, is a pittance of Power compared to that bestowed to those who imbibe the Blood of the Earth.

Krazy Kat is not entirely crazy on this one.

There are three references to "the power of command" in TIW, before Bannor reveals the name of the Seventh Ward.

"Come on," Troy said. His tone was full of the power of command. "The Lords are doing something you ought to see."

She recognized the potential value of his tactical skill, put faith in it; she gave his voice the power of command. Because of her, he was now giving orders of great risk, and leading the Warward in a cause for which he would not be ashamed to die.

The contrast to his own weakness humbled Troy. He turned away to look out over the Plains again. The ponderous movement of Lord Foul's hordes continued as before, and at the sight he felt a resurgence of panic. But he held onto his power of command, gripped it to keep his shame at bay.

All of these references give Troy the power of command. It is a power found in his voice. It is a power granted by Elena.

Coincidence? It cannot be. It's more than just thematic, because it's in reference to Troy and no one else.

Troy does not foresee all the ends that his power of command will lead to. either.

Only one of those references refers to Elena. I was aware that "power of command" was mentioned before the EarthBlood scene with reference to Troy, but always saw it as a kind of textual clue that Donaldson dropped here and there. Now you're saying there is more to it than just clues.

I'm not sure what your last sentence is hinting at.

[wayfriend]

I'm not sure what your last sentence is hinting at.

It means this: The down side of the Power of Command is that you cannot forsee the consequences of your Command. I think that Troy's "power of command" has similar results. Being a rookie general, I don't think he could forsee the consequences of his commands. It certainly "rebounded" against him in an unexpected way - he had to become a forestal in order to save his forces from the corner he had put them in.

I think Donaldson's comment about Troy in the GI is relative to this.

Hile Troy is an interesting example. He's "innocent" in a way that Covenant is not: he's never done anything even remotely comparable to the rape of Lena. As a result, he's bloody dangerous. He literally doesn't know what he's doing: he hasn't learned the kind of humility that comes from meeting his own inner Despiser face-to-face. Therefore, in spite of all his good intentions, he makes decisions which bear an ineluctable resemblence to Kevin's.

Do you doubt me? Look at Troy's "accomplishments." If Mhoram hadn't saved his bacon at the edge of Garroting Deep, his decisions would have effectively destroyed the Lords' ability to defend the Land. He's just too damn innocent. He hasn't learned the self-doubt, the humility, that makes Covenant hesitate, or that makes Mhoram wise.

(07/13/2004)

It seems to me that Donaldson must have intentionally put a message in here for us somewhere. Perhaps the message is, whether your Power of Command comes from Earthroot itself, or it's just from being responsible, you cannot foresee all ends of your actions. And a fair amount of experience is needed to even think about playing in the game.

[Savor Dam]

Point taken, Wayfriend.

While I do thing there are differences of magnitude between the repercussions of Elena's choices and Troy's -- that the Power of Command is a quantum level more puissant than mere power of command -- I definitely see how SRD intended to make the parallels an important subtext to this story.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm not sure what your last sentence is hinting at.

It means this: The down side of the Power of Command is that you cannot forsee the consequences of your Command. I think that Troy's "power of command" has similar results. Being a rookie general, I don't think he could forsee the consequences of his commands. It certainly "rebounded" against him in an unexpected way - he had to become a forestal in order to save his forces from the corner he had put them in.

I think Donaldson's comment about Troy in the GI is relative to this.

Hile Troy is an interesting example. He's "innocent" in a way that Covenant is not: he's never done anything even remotely comparable to the rape of Lena. As a result, he's bloody dangerous. He literally doesn't know what he's doing: he hasn't learned the kind of humility that comes from meeting his own inner Despiser face-to-face. Therefore, in spite of all his good intentions, he makes decisions which bear an ineluctable resemblence to Kevin's.

Do you doubt me? Look at Troy's "accomplishments." If Mhoram hadn't saved his bacon at the edge of Garroting Deep, his decisions would have effectively destroyed the Lords' ability to defend the Land. He's just too damn innocent. He hasn't learned the self-doubt, the humility, that makes Covenant hesitate, or that makes Mhoram wise.

(07/13/2004)

It seems to me that Donaldson must have intentionally put a message in here for us somewhere. Perhaps the message is, whether your Power of Command comes from Earthroot itself, or it's just from being responsible, you cannot foresee all ends of your actions. And a fair amount of experience is needed to even think about playing in the game.

I think it should be kept in mind that Troy has this strike against him from the beginning, from what Donaldson tells us: he has had no fall from grace to teach him humility as Covenant did - thus he is proud and arrogant, a potential Landwaster. But there is another point here: Troy is a stranger to the Land as Covenant, he can be informed well enough about the Land to plot strategies of war but he doesn't have any Land-born "instincts" to guide him. Therefore it is all based in theory, just like his original plan to defeat Foul's army was all based in theory. Underestimating the size of Foul's army threw his entire war strategy into the waste-basket. But I think he did a really good job working with what he was given, and that if Mhoram had to save his bacon at Garroting Deep, well that's what Lords are for. Could another Warmark have done better? I don't see any Power of Command analogy in any of this.