SRD won't tell me

[Holsety]

However, assaulting Sorus' ship, risky as it was, stood a chance of success, don't you agree? (And along with I think many other Gap readers, I believe he deserved a better end.)

I felt his end fitted him. The main "grating" part of the story in book 4 for me was the sheer delay of it all, as others seem to have already pointed out.

Along with running into Sorus again, it was the whole charade that Morn played on him. Nick needed, more than anything else, to believe that women fawned over him, that he was irresistably The Man. His entire self-concept was based on this need. He had come to believe that Morn was absolutely taken by him. When he found out he was the one who'd been taken, it sent him over the edge.

I personally think that he still had himself together to a good extent after he realized Morn had been playing him dumb. At that point the real "loss" for Nick is that some of the best of his crew (most notably Mikka) stopped being loyal to him.

[Vraith]

For the story: yea, Amnion [and probably Holt] win: too much of Morn surviving to reach earth with the formula/testimony depends on this.

For Nick: I think most of the earlier things are like that little ding in your windshield...it keeps spreading, more cracks, longer...NOT killing Sorus/Soar is the shock that turns the whole thing into billions of itty bitty fragments.
[which, by the way, it is almost impossible to clean all of out of your car: ten years later, you still keep finding pieces in impossible places].

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think a little reflection quite solves the riddle I asked about.

What I find hard to believe is that if Liete had attacked Sorus' ship, the Amnion would not only have obliterated the Fancy, but also the scout ship and the landing party, except Angus who was still on his original mission. (Angus would have accomplished the mission he was programmed to do but would have also been killed when the planetoid blew up.)

[Holsety]

I don't think a little reflection quite solves the riddle I asked about.

What I find hard to believe is that if Liete had attacked Sorus' ship, the Amnion would not only have obliterated the Fancy, but also the scout ship and the landing party, except Angus who was still on his original mission. (Angus would have accomplished the mission he was programmed to do but would have also been killed when the planetoid blew up.)

Sorry. I personally didn't completely understand this point of yours prior to this particular rephrasing of it.

It would help to know whether it was soar or calm horizons that brought down cap'ns fancy. Anyone remember or have their books handy? If I had that info I would attempt to construct the various paths the story would/could have taken.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think a little reflection quite solves the riddle I asked about.

What I find hard to believe is that if Liete had attacked Sorus' ship, the Amnion would not only have obliterated the Fancy, but also the scout ship and the landing party, except Angus who was still on his original mission. (Angus would have accomplished the mission he was programmed to do but would have also been killed when the planetoid blew up.)

Sorry. I personally didn't completely understand this point of yours prior to this particular rephrasing of it.

It would help to know whether it was soar or calm horizons that brought down cap'ns fancy. Anyone remember or have their books handy? If I had that info I would attempt to construct the various paths the story would/could have taken.

I have the book, but it is too much material to post here. All I am asking is: could anybody be THAT crazy? I'm sure you will say 'yes, Nick had gone off the deep-end.' But didn't he still want to live?

To answer your question, no ship brought down Fancy, Liete rammed the Amnion ship that was docked on Billingsgate. I believe that ship was Tranquil Hegemony.

In the scene I am referring to, Liete was 'playing dead', as ordered by Nick, pretending to be under control of Hegemony through Nick's old codes. She became aware that Hegemony had trained her matter cannons on the landing party on Billingsgate that was trying to make its way back to the needle scout with Morn. Liete was torn between following the order to attack Soar and disobeying his order by saving Nick from certain death.

At this time, Angus had split apart from the landing party in order to accomplish his original mission. That mission had not included rescuing Morn, this was a Warden Dios reprogrammed mission.

At first Liete had attacked Hegemony with matter cannon but, aware that something was up, Hegemony attacked Fancy a split-second before, causing the Fancy's aim to be thrown off track. Hegemony was only slightly damaged, while the Fancy was probably mortally wounded. Liete then rammed Captain's Fancy into Hegemony, thus saving Nick and the landing party.

[ItisWritten]

I don't think a little reflection quite solves the riddle I asked about.

What I find hard to believe is that if Liete had attacked Sorus' ship, the Amnion would not only have obliterated the Fancy, but also the scout ship and the landing party, except Angus who was still on his original mission. (Angus would have accomplished the mission he was programmed to do but would have also been killed when the planetoid blew up.)

Sorry. I personally didn't completely understand this point of yours prior to this particular rephrasing of it.

It would help to know whether it was soar or calm horizons that brought down cap'ns fancy. Anyone remember or have their books handy? If I had that info I would attempt to construct the various paths the story would/could have taken.

I have the book, but it is too much material to post here. All I am asking is: could anybody be THAT crazy? I'm sure you will say 'yes, Nick had gone off the deep-end.' But didn't he still want to live?

Nick still believed in his ability to survive. To be able to make something of nothing. I imagine he thought that with Soar destroyed, the Bill and/or the Amnion would be looking for Sorus' replacement, and that Nick could be that guy. We're talking about a person who believed everyone had a price, even the Amnion.

They did, as Angus and Sorus learned years before, and Nick was on that same path. He had already jumped into the deep end of an empty pool. He just hadn't hit bottom yet.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Sorry. I personally didn't completely understand this point of yours prior to this particular rephrasing of it.

It would help to know whether it was soar or calm horizons that brought down cap'ns fancy. Anyone remember or have their books handy? If I had that info I would attempt to construct the various paths the story would/could have taken.

I have the book, but it is too much material to post here. All I am asking is: could anybody be THAT crazy? I'm sure you will say 'yes, Nick had gone off the deep-end.' But didn't he still want to live?

Nick still believed in his ability to survive. To be able to make something of nothing. I imagine he thought that with Soar destroyed, the Bill and/or the Amnion would be looking for Sorus' replacement, and that Nick could be that guy. We're talking about a person who believed everyone had a price, even the Amnion.

They did, as Angus and Sorus learned years before, and Nick was on that same path. He had already jumped into the deep end of an empty pool. He just hadn't hit bottom yet.

At least that's a better answer than saying Nick was crazy enough to die for it. Or saying that the Amnion and Fasner would win. Because what I'm saying is that Nick (crazy as he was) still had a plan, and that this plan covered all contingencies such as the possibility of being killed on the surface of the planetoid by Amnion matter cannon fire.

[ItisWritten]

Because what I'm saying is that Nick (crazy as he was) still had a plan, and that this plan covered all contingencies such as the possibility of being killed on the surface of the planetoid by Amnion matter cannon fire.

So, what you're implying is that Nick would win?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Because what I'm saying is that Nick (crazy as he was) still had a plan, and that this plan covered all contingencies such as the possibility of being killed on the surface of the planetoid by Amnion matter cannon fire.

So, what you're implying is that Nick would win?

I'm just asking. My first post was a question. I wasn't sure what all exactly my question entailed, it was more of a feeling. But now I am asking: Could Nick have won? Is it even remotely possible?

Internally, I like the possibility that Nick could have won given the original strategy he gave to Liete and despite Angus's unknown - at the time - sabotage beneath Billingsgate.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

One thing I do know for sure: it was not Donaldson's strategy for this character to win. If Nick had gained the victory against Sorus Chatelaine, and without being killed by the Amnion, he would have won back everything he had lost previously, including the respect and loyalty of those crewmembers who mutinied. In my mind, Nick should have won his way back to Earth, confronted the Amnion menace in orbit there, and died fighting against them. Instead, a most unusual character was put in Nick's place to die fighting in orbit,

Spoiler

Warden Dios.

Liete was an interesting case of irony: she was loyal and trustworthy to a fault.

[ItisWritten]

You forget how damaged Nick was, and the truth about revenge. If Nick had won over Sorus, he would have continued to aim himself at anyone who opposed him (and you must realize Morn and Angus would have), including UMCP and Dios.

Because he was damaged, every slight and insult caused a predictable reaction. This made him an easy pawn for Fasner (see Chaos) and, if he had lived that long, the Amnion.

Nick would no more have fought against the Amnion menace than the Angus of TRS.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

You forget how damaged Nick was, and the truth about revenge. If Nick had won over Sorus, he would have continued to aim himself at anyone who opposed him (and you must realize Morn and Angus would have), including UMCP and Dios.

Because he was damaged, every slight and insult caused a predictable reaction. This made him an easy pawn for Fasner (see Chaos) and, if he had lived that long, the Amnion.

Nick would no more have fought against the Amnion menace than the Angus of TRS.

As for forgetting how damaged Nick was, I thought we had already dealt with that and moved on. And anyway, damaged people can still win either through skill or luck. Somebody stated that Nick went off the deep end the time he was cut by Sorus. However, he did go on from there to begin a very successful pirate career.

Nick was predictable, as you say, but devious. I certainly could not have predicted what his plan would be in this or that scenario. Here's the truth about Nick's downfall: deviousness only works where there are various options, and Nick was running out of both time and options. It was on Billingsgate where Nick found that more and more doors were being closed to him. He became crazy like a trapped animal, and focused on Sorus as the source of all his problems. But he was seeking that kind of revenge for a long, long time before events in the novels even occurred.

Nick's old mission for the UMCP was irrelevant anyway, although he didn't know this at the time. But the plot to reduce the Bill's credibility by giving him an antimutagen which would turn out to be a fake, is really weak in comparison to simply destroying the Billingsgate planetoid and the Bill. So it's just as well that Nick's priorities had changed.

But I see nothing self-destructive about revenge itself, only the obsession with it. If Nick was completely overwhelmed with the desire to destroy Soar and Sorus Chatelaine then perhaps he would gladly die in the endeavor to do so. However, I think you stated that Nick still wanted to live. So this leads me to believe that Nick had a way out of the dilemma on the surface of Billingsgate if only Liete would have followed his orders. But we will never know what this ingenious plan was, it is not very predictable, none of Nick's plans really are, thus my original question.

[CovenantJr]

Sorry. I personally didn't completely understand this point of yours prior to this particular rephrasing of it.

It would help to know whether it was soar or calm horizons that brought down cap'ns fancy. Anyone remember or have their books handy? If I had that info I would attempt to construct the various paths the story would/could have taken.

I have the book, but it is too much material to post here. All I am asking is: could anybody be THAT crazy? I'm sure you will say 'yes, Nick had gone off the deep-end.' But didn't he still want to live?

Nick still believed in his ability to survive. To be able to make something of nothing.

I agree. Someone said on the previous page that Nick would be the type of father who'd throw his child in the deep end, but I think he's also the type to throw himself in the deep end. I've known real people like that - my own father, for one. Nick seems to deal with extreme adversity by leaping straight into the heart of it and trusting in his own ingenuity, resourcefulness and luck to get him through.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I have the book, but it is too much material to post here. All I am asking is: could anybody be THAT crazy? I'm sure you will say 'yes, Nick had gone off the deep-end.' But didn't he still want to live?

Nick still believed in his ability to survive. To be able to make something of nothing.

I agree. Someone said on the previous page that Nick would be the type of father who'd throw his child in the deep end, but I think he's also the type to throw himself in the deep end. I've known real people like that - my own father, for one. Nick seems to deal with extreme adversity by leaping straight into the heart of it and trusting in his own ingenuity, resourcefulness and luck to get him through.

Not luck. The rest, yes, but he would never trust fate because that cannot be one of Nick's personal tools, it can't be part of himself. Does that make sense?

[ItisWritten]

Nick still believed in his ability to survive. To be able to make something of nothing.

I agree. Someone said on the previous page that Nick would be the type of father who'd throw his child in the deep end, but I think he's also the type to throw himself in the deep end. I've known real people like that - my own father, for one. Nick seems to deal with extreme adversity by leaping straight into the heart of it and trusting in his own ingenuity, resourcefulness and luck to get him through.

Not luck. The rest, yes, but he would never trust fate because that cannot be one of Nick's personal tools, it can't be part of himself. Does that make sense?

Nick certainly didn't have a plan when he killed Orn Vorbuld. That was a pure rage reaction to attempted blackmail. He was lucky Morn found a way past Vorbuld's scheme. But here's the point: though it was Morn who solved the problem, you can bet Nick counted the episode as another of his triumphs. In his narcissistic soul, what his crew did was a reflection of him.

Nick had to win. Failure was not an option for him. Not since Sorus first beat him.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I agree. Someone said on the previous page that Nick would be the type of father who'd throw his child in the deep end, but I think he's also the type to throw himself in the deep end. I've known real people like that - my own father, for one. Nick seems to deal with extreme adversity by leaping straight into the heart of it and trusting in his own ingenuity, resourcefulness and luck to get him through.

Not luck. The rest, yes, but he would never trust fate because that cannot be one of Nick's personal tools, it can't be part of himself. Does that make sense?

Nick certainly didn't have a plan when he killed Orn Vorbuld. That was a pure rage reaction to attempted blackmail. He was lucky Morn found a way past Vorbuld's scheme. But here's the point: though it was Morn who solved the problem, you can bet Nick counted the episode as another of his triumphs. In his narcissistic soul, what his crew did was a reflection of him.

Nick had to win. Failure was not an option for him. Not since Sorus first beat him.

Are you quite sure that Nick had no plan and that it was an act of pure rage? It may not have been a plan, perhaps a method of instruction for the rest of the crew who stood by observing the fight: "This could happen to you too." Not to mention an extreme form of punishment.

[ItisWritten]

Not luck. The rest, yes, but he would never trust fate because that cannot be one of Nick's personal tools, it can't be part of himself. Does that make sense?

Nick certainly didn't have a plan when he killed Orn Vorbuld. That was a pure rage reaction to attempted blackmail. He was lucky Morn found a way past Vorbuld's scheme. But here's the point: though it was Morn who solved the problem, you can bet Nick counted the episode as another of his triumphs. In his narcissistic soul, what his crew did was a reflection of him.

Nick had to win. Failure was not an option for him. Not since Sorus first beat him.

Are you quite sure that Nick had no plan and that it was an act of pure rage? It may not have been a plan, perhaps a method of instruction for the rest of the crew who stood by observing the fight: "This could happen to you too." Not to mention an extreme form of punishment.

Oh, it was certainly controlled rage. And the message to everyone, including Morn, was clear. But he trusted there was a way around Vorbuld's lock even though he didn't know what it was. Sounds like luck to me.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Nick certainly didn't have a plan when he killed Orn Vorbuld. That was a pure rage reaction to attempted blackmail. He was lucky Morn found a way past Vorbuld's scheme. But here's the point: though it was Morn who solved the problem, you can bet Nick counted the episode as another of his triumphs. In his narcissistic soul, what his crew did was a reflection of him.

Nick had to win. Failure was not an option for him. Not since Sorus first beat him.

Are you quite sure that Nick had no plan and that it was an act of pure rage? It may not have been a plan, perhaps a method of instruction for the rest of the crew who stood by observing the fight: "This could happen to you too." Not to mention an extreme form of punishment.

Oh, it was certainly controlled rage. And the message to everyone, including Morn, was clear. But he trusted there was a way around Vorbuld's lock even though he didn't know what it was. Sounds like luck to me.

If you want to use the word "trusted" in this case. Of course there is no unbeatable password or virus. There is a way around or through, it's just a matter of finding the key. If Nick happened to luck out, then let's not forget that his self-image is found in the regard of others; and so he must then find a way to show that it was all his doing and not luck at all.