Why were the griffin absent in TPTP?

[Krazy Kat]

Does anyone think it odd that the griffin don't play a part in the siege of Revelstone? If you think about it, they would have made the ideal siege weapon for Lord Foul's army.

They are described as having only short bursts of flight, maybe because of the weight ratio between the body mass and strength of their wings. But then why didn't Lord Foul continue to develop these beasts? Could it have been the defeat of Drool Rockworm that ended the experiments and warping of nature on the birds and animals in the land? Or was it something else - like maybe the Bloodgaurd or the Lords had did something during the Quest for the Staff of Law to force the Despiser to cease all research into his Air Force? Finding the Second Ward?

After I had finished reading Lord Foul's Bane for the first time and was thinking whether I should continue on to book two the deciding factor for me has always been the attack on Soaring Woodhelven and how the griffin played a part. It struck me how they seemed to symbolize the Despiser's derision, and the way that our subconscious is sometimes attacked in our daily lives. From above!

The griffin are also very magical in the dreamlike sense, if you compare them to classical iconic scenes in cinema: Rachel Welch being carried off by the prehistoric bird in 1 Million Years BC, or in the 7th Voyage of Sinbad, the flying monkeys in the Wizard of OZ! ...are just a few...

So my question is, what happened to them and why their absence in TPTP? The Lords and Bloodgaurd might have accomplished something to have ended Lord Foul's airborne threat! What that might be, I'm not quite sure.

Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas about this?

[Savor Dam]

denny: Mr. Donaldson,
[heavily pruned with denny's permission]

Why were 'Gryphons' (Griffins ??) introduced to the Land via your pen ? I always thought they felt a little out of place, these beasts from Greece (as it were), taken from a mythology that didn't really mesh well with the Land's rich fabric .. any comments or thoughts on Gryphons (a 'geeky' question I know, but a lot of the good stuff has already been covered hehe)


Actually, I agree with you--retrospectively. By the time I was well into "The Second Chronicles," I had already begun to feel that "griffins" were a, well, let's call them a tactical error. The rationalization, of course, is this: if Covenant is dreaming, than anything he knows can serve as an antecedent or source for something in the Land. But rationalizations don't matter when the results don't *feel* right. And like you, I now find that griffins don't feel right for my story. I look back on them as a failure of imagination.

Sadly, I don't have the option of correcting miscalculations which occurred that long ago. So I'm going to fall back on the tried and true gambit of Blaming Someone Else. <grin> This is all Lester's fault. He was my editor: he should have been perceptive enough to realize that griffins didn't belong in the same company as ur-viles, Cavewights, and the like.

But seriously: I just screwed up.

The interesting question is: why don't Giants suffer from the same flaw? After all, like griffins they arise from the mythologies of our world. The answer, I think, is that I reinvented Giants thoroughly enough to make them fit, whereas I didn't reinvent griffins at all.

(04/05/2007)

[Krazy Kat]

Thanks, Savor Dam. That is a superb GI quote!

But what is your point?

[Savor Dam]

Well, my thought was that given the realization that griffins did not fit into the world he was building SRD decided / was advised by Lester & Judy-Lynn that these creatures ought to be phased out.

On reflection, it has occurred to me (and perhaps to you, but you were too gracious to point out) that since all three volumes of the First Chronicles were published at the same time, SRD would have edited the griffin out of LFB as well as IEW and TPTP.

While my intital intention was to shed what little light I could, there are still long shadows cast on this topic. Perhaps one of our more learned Chrons scholars will weigh in...

[wayfriend]

Griffins appear in The Illearth War. They are mentioned in The Power that Preserves: they, as well as wolves, are no-shows.

[ninjaboy]

I do think the griffins would have been a good tactical weapon for the siege of Revelstone, but am thoroughly satisfied that they stopped appearing in the series... And I think the defenders of Revelstone had a tough enough time already anyway..

But the presence and use of Griffins by the ur-viles had nothing at all to do with Drool warping life with the Staff of Law - and Fangthane did a whole heap more warping with the Illearth stone than anyone could have done with the Staff of Law, and neither ur-viles or Griffin were warped anyway - they existed in their healthy, natural state.

[jackgiantkiller]

I liked the griffins due to the depiction of one on the cover of the IEW, it looked cool, but on reflection they were a bit 'hobbitish' the kresh on the otherhand worked well, I never imagined the giants to be that big just very tall for human standards, about a man and a half, 12 foot is trhis how they are described? or was it me

[Krazy Kat]

On reflection, it has occurred to me (and perhaps to you, but you were too gracious to point out) that since all three volumes of the First Chronicles were published at the same time, SRD would have edited the griffin out of LFB as well as IEW and TPTP.

Yes, this is more to the point that I'm making.

Let's say they did edit out the griffin, then I'd say that they would also have had to edit out the character Irin, the hawk with the mad orb, the three-winged bird that flew over Soaring Woodhelven, etc, etc, etc...

[Orlion]

I never considered the griffins to be out of place, personally. I think they were there for much the same reason Foul did anything: to toy with people's emotions and lead them to despair. With the breaking of the Law of Death, Foul was able to use the dead, which achieved this objective more, I think. Griffins may be scary, but seeing people that may have fought for the Land before be forced to fight against it... well, that's a real mind*&^

[Krazy Kat]

When Korik told his tale to Prothal and the rest of the company, he said that Irin had snatched up a Cavewight broadsword and attacked the griffin. The warrior failed and was ripped apart. But this gave the Bloodguard the chance they needed and pulling the creature to the ground they killed it.

Korik also showed what he had in his bag: the illearth hawk!

It reminds me of the poem:

Jabberwocky

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxsome foe he sought -
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with it's head
He went galumphing back.

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves'
And the mome raths outgrabe!"

[ninjaboy]

On reflection, it has occurred to me (and perhaps to you, but you were too gracious to point out) that since all three volumes of the First Chronicles were published at the same time, SRD would have edited the griffin out of LFB as well as IEW and TPTP.

Yes, this is more to the point that I'm making.

Let's say they did edit out the griffin, then I'd say that they would also have had to edit out the character Irin, the hawk with the mad orb, the three-winged bird that flew over Soaring Woodhelven, etc, etc, etc...

I don't think that whatsoever.. S D would have fount a way for Irin to have bravely sacrificed him/herself to save the company, and the hawk, and 3-winged bird still fit perfectly within the story, as they were created/warped by the SOL, whereas the griffin was just a creature that, upon the author's reflection, shouldn't have been in the story but aside from that was as whole and healthy as the waynhim and giants.

[peter]

I think your observation Jack, of the Giants approximate height is correct - I'm sure in the description of Giants in the Chrons 'twice the height of humans' is mentioned somewhere (if not in those exact words).
Like Orlion, I have no problem with the griffin and the Giants seem such a natural part of the Land that their 'lifting' from any other mythology had never even occured to me; perhaps the 'seamless' quality of Donaldsons writing is the reason that what, in lesser writers hands, would be a glaring faults are instead highlights in the Land's story.

[Thorhammerhand]

The simple answer to this question is that Satansheart, (That is is giant raver as far as I remember), didn't want them there.

In the chapter where the defenders of Revelstone first see the army coming it looks like SH recruted a lore-powerful army, rather than his brothers might-powerful army with griffin, wolves and kresh.

[peter]

This is going to sound so ridiculous that I am in two minds whether to even post it - but is it possible that Foul had no real interest or even desire to win the seige at revelstone and that it's real purpose was just to tie up the defenders of the Land. In that way he could prevent thier being present to aid TC in his final battle with Foul for possesion of the ring, and concentrate on his much bigger goal of destroying the Arch of Time and freeing himself to wreak havoc in the Universe at large. On this scale the seige of Revelstone must have seemed like pretty small fry and only significant in so far as it furthured his long term aims. A swift end to the seige brought about by the Griffins might have just freed up potential aid for TC had it been able to escape (which undoubtedly Mhoram would somehow have contrived to bring about).

[SleeplessOne]

that was my GI question !!

[ninjaboy]

This is going to sound so ridiculous that I am in two minds whether to even post it - but is it possible that Foul had no real interest or even desire to win the seige at revelstone and that it's real purpose was just to tie up the defenders of the Land. In that way he could prevent thier being present to aid TC in his final battle with Foul for possesion of the ring, and concentrate on his much bigger goal of destroying the Arch of Time and freeing himself to wreak havoc in the Universe at large. On this scale the seige of Revelstone must have seemed like pretty small fry and only significant in so far as it furthured his long term aims. A swift end to the seige brought about by the Griffins might have just freed up potential aid for TC had it been able to escape (which undoubtedly Mhoram would somehow have contrived to bring about).

I suppose that is a valid point.. There is no real need for Fangthane to capture or destroy Revelstone, as it would not actually help him achieve his aims of breaking the Arch of Time.. And if he DID destroy the lords he would have no-one to summon the Unbeliever for him or armies to crush in the Land in the future..

[Krazy Kat]

This is going to sound so ridiculous that I am in two minds whether to even post it - but is it possible that Foul had no real interest or even desire to win the seige at revelstone and that it's real purpose was just to tie up the defenders of the Land. In that way he could prevent thier being present to aid TC in his final battle with Foul for possesion of the ring, and concentrate on his much bigger goal of destroying the Arch of Time and freeing himself to wreak havoc in the Universe at large. On this scale the seige of Revelstone must have seemed like pretty small fry and only significant in so far as it furthured his long term aims. A swift end to the seige brought about by the Griffins might have just freed up potential aid for TC had it been able to escape (which undoubtedly Mhoram would somehow have contrived to bring about).

I suppose that is a valid point.. There is no real need for Fangthane to capture or destroy Revelstone, as it would not actually help him achieve his aims of breaking the Arch of Time.. And if he DID destroy the lords he would have no-one to summon the Unbeliever for him or armies to crush in the Land in the future..

One way of looking at the siege of Revelstone is how SRD writes his stories with real heavy symbolism.

Mount Thunder has been described as if it were a head and shoulders with elbows resting on the upper land and with the hands held in prayer. This description of the mountain makes think of a chess plalyer, ie Lord Foul, (who would surely play the black pieces!).

When Covenant sees Revelstone for the first time he is sure there's something very significant about its grand fascade, but fails to grasp what it is. This has always made me think that the giants carved a face into the rock of the plateau, but because of all the buttresses, oriels, and turrets, the face is obscure. Hence, the opponent of Lord Foul, (the white set!)

So having giving this thread some more thought, I've reached the conclusion that it's all really trivial, and that any threat from an advanced form of griffin was rendered null and void once the Fire Lions had been summoned at the end of Lord Foul's Bane.
Lord Foul lost the power to attack the top of the head of Revelstone and so had to hit the gates. Which are described as like two hands held together. You can clasp your own hands together to see what I mean!

When Korik told his tale to Prothal and the rest of the company, he said that Irin had snatched up a Cavewight broadsword and attacked the griffin. The warrior failed and was ripped apart. But this gave the Bloodguard the chance they needed and pulling the creature to the ground they killed it.

Korik also showed what he had in his bag: the illearth hawk!

It reminds me of the poem:

Jabberwocky

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxsome foe he sought -
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with it's head
He went galumphing back.

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves'
And the mome raths outgrabe!"

...and I'm damded if I know where this line of thought goes!

[Relayer]

Mount Thunder has been described as if it were a head and shoulders with elbows resting on the upper land and with the hands held in prayer. This description of the mountain makes think of a chess plalyer, ie Lord Foul, (who would surely play the black pieces!).

When Covenant sees Revelstone for the first time he is sure there's something very significant about its grand fascade, but fails to grasp what it is. This has always made me think that the giants carved a face into the rock of the plateau, but because of all the buttresses, oriels, and turrets, the face is obscure. Hence, the opponent of Lord Foul, (the white set!)

Interesting metaphor. Mt Thunder, being volcanic, would be made up of black / dark rock, while Revelstone is made up of white granite.

"Ranyhyn to Raver's Knight 3..."

[Krazy Kat]

"Ranyhyn to Raver's Knight 3..."

"Pietten takes Queen's pawn ..."

[sindatur]

"Ranyhyn to Raver's Knight 3..."

"Pietten takes Queen's pawn ..."

Here, Here...Nicely Played

(Tried to do a British accent, but, every combination of letters seemed to harsh on the extra letter )

Hyeh, Hyeh...Hereh, Hereh...Heyr, Heyr...

? Where's the shrugging shoulders/Doesn't know Avatar ?