Why were the griffin absent in TPTP?

[Relayer]

Another reply from The Man. Interestingly, he usually doesn't answer the same question twice...

KK : Hi Steve,
My question is from the 1st Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and concerns the griffin. What was it that stopped Lord Foul developing the (his air force) griffin?
Surely the Despiser knew he would need to defeat Revelstone eventually, and the griffin would have been a powerful siege weapon!

OK, now you're embarrassing me. <sigh> The *real* reason that Lord Foul doesn't develop griffins as an air force is that I was ashamed of having intruded one into the story in the first place. *That,* I believed then, and still believe, was a failure of imagination. I should have invented a creature instead of borrowing one from standard mythology. Well, I didn't have any better ideas at the time. But the griffin's presence always bothered me, so I avoided relying on it later in the story.

(10/13/2010)

[Krazy Kat]

Thanks Relayer.

To be honest, I'd regretted sending that question (my first) to the Gradual Interview. Once I'd posted it here it all seemed too trivial to be answered by The Man himself. Well, I think I got off lightly <phew>.

I hadn't made the connexion with the poem, Jabberwocky until this thread had generated some ideas. I think that Mr.Donaldson's reply has made me see things in a different light. I'd always assumed the Jabberwocky was a dangerous beast mainly because of Tenniel's drawings. Maybe the moral to the poem is that just because someone is horrendously ugly doesn't justify them being beheaded for it. And he who lives by the sword dies by the sword!

[fantailfan]

Spoiler

Griffins are mentioned in Fatal Revenant: can't find the page right now, but it's near 200 HC.

(*mod edit, pertinent to the discussion but somewhat spoilerish!)

[Krazy Kat]

To pick up where I left off, and back on topic, does anyone look at the events that occurred during the battle of Soaring Woodhelvin somewhat odd.
I mean, only one griffin appeared, ridden by an ur-vile loremaster.


When Korik told his tale to Lord Prothal and the Quest he may have been telling some pretty interesting fibs. If so. Why? .
In Korik's tale, there also was only one griffin ridden by an ur-vile loremaster.

If the Harluchai mandate is to "be true" to their Vow, and yet everything they say are "white lies", then the repercussions to the role they play within the story could be very revealing. Tull and Runnik, for example.

The griffin is obviously connected in a roundabout way to the Calling of the Firelions and to Covenant's revelation concerning the use of his white gold ring.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Got to think on the post above - appears to be interesting.

However, I already have something to write about this

denny: Mr. Donaldson,
[heavily pruned with denny's permission]

Why were 'Gryphons' (Griffins ??) introduced to the Land via your pen ? I always thought they felt a little out of place, these beasts from Greece (as it were), taken from a mythology that didn't really mesh well with the Land's rich fabric .. any comments or thoughts on Gryphons (a 'geeky' question I know, but a lot of the good stuff has already been covered hehe)

Actually, I agree with you--retrospectively. By the time I was well into "The Second Chronicles," I had already begun to feel that "griffins" were a, well, let's call them a tactical error. The rationalization, of course, is this: if Covenant is dreaming, than anything he knows can serve as an antecedent or source for something in the Land. But rationalizations don't matter when the results don't *feel* right. And like you, I now find that griffins don't feel right for my story. I look back on them as a failure of imagination.

Sadly, I don't have the option of correcting miscalculations which occurred that long ago. So I'm going to fall back on the tried and true gambit of Blaming Someone Else. <grin> This is all Lester's fault. He was my editor: he should have been perceptive enough to realize that griffins didn't belong in the same company as ur-viles, Cavewights, and the like.

But seriously: I just screwed up.

The interesting question is: why don't Giants suffer from the same flaw? After all, like griffins they arise from the mythologies of our world. The answer, I think, is that I reinvented Giants thoroughly enough to make them fit, whereas I didn't reinvent griffins at all.

(04/05/2007)

Even if SRD himself says he he screwed up it doesn't mean he did. It's far not the first time an author is somewhy unhappy with his wonderful work. There can be an interesting explaination.

It's quite clear that there were a lot of breeding/"mutating" experiments in the Land. The Illearth Stone was definitely one of the means, but certainly not the only one. Also, nearly all or even all of that (in time approximately before the creation of Vain) was either influenced or actually done by LF.

Then, we can take another look at the griffins. They actually look like pieces from several creatures taken and combined. Thus, it's very much possible they actually are made that way.

Next goes a question perhaps for another topic, so I'll only mention it a little. Lord Foul definitely has at least some possibilities to connect to other worlds, or at least one. There's also a possibility that LF may remember something about different worlds from the time before getting trapped under the AoT.

Thus, a griffin in LF's army already feels quite natural. All those cavewights, untypical giants etc. are the Creator's work, griffins differ because they are not.

And this way they not only fit well, but also provide quite some insight on connections between worlds - a most interesting topic, on which I really hope to see more discussions here. And I'm not going to simply sit hoping

Ah, and about why they just "disappeared". Keeping in mind the suggestion above, there are easily two variants, and they can go combined. Either they simply got killed off and LF decided that making more is not worth it, or, more likely in my opinion, the griffins "Made in Land" from the local animals turned out to somehow not match the standards LF has seen somewhere or set himself.

[Orlion]

Ah, and about why they just "disappeared". Keeping in mind the suggestion above, there are easily two variants, and they can go combined. Either they simply got killed off and LF decided that making more is not worth it, or, more likely in my opinion, the griffins "Made in Land" from the local animals turned out to somehow not match the standards LF has seen somewhere or set himself.

Yeah, that's kinda how I feel if I'm cornered. Ultimately, I've never had a problem with them and I do not think they in anyway lessen Donaldson's reputation for being creative (sheesh, the place is called THE LAND...where's all the complaints about that?)

Part of the disconnect, I think, is also people feel that Foul would want to conquer Revelstone... though it may entertain him, that's not his ultimate goal. Keeping folks at Revelstone for an exteneded period of time kept them away from helping Covenant... or, more specifically, had it happened differently, it would have kept Covenant busy... and the brutality of a drawn out siege could have driven Covenant to despair and annihilate the Arch.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Yeah, that's kinda how I feel if I'm cornered. Ultimately, I've never had a problem with them and I do not think they in anyway lessen Donaldson's reputation for being creative (sheesh, the place is called THE LAND...where's all the complaints about that?)

Part of the disconnect, I think, is also people feel that Foul would want to conquer Revelstone... though it may entertain him, that's not his ultimate goal. Keeping folks at Revelstone for an exteneded period of time kept them away from helping Covenant... or, more specifically, had it happened differently, it would have kept Covenant busy... and the brutality of a drawn out siege could have driven Covenant to despair and annihilate the Arch.

It can certainly be a valid point ahd good strategical thinking, though I'd think rather that LF, even if conquering Revelstone was of no use for him, wanted to do it anyway. It's not that simply "entertainment". I can try to explain better, though perhaps the part in the Chronicles where Foul's Creche is described can be the best explanation.

And, of course, I agree absolutely about creativity

I also have quite a strong feeling that the things "out of place" can be explained, since when a writer writes, not necessarily everything is written consciously. Actually, it feels like there's no better name for the Land than the Land

[sindatur]

Eh, the reason there's no more Griffins is that Peter and Stewie were busy during TPTP

I say we simply take SRD at his word, he wasn't happy with them in his work, so, he quietly let them fade away

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

fantailfan

Spoiler

quote:
Then he seemed to gather his thoughts. "Some of it's about time. Where we are-I
mean, when-there's more of practically everything. More trees, more Forestals, more
griffins, quellvisks, and other monsters, more Cavewights, more powers. Between now
and the time where we belong, things get used up. Or killed in Foul's wars. Or ruined
by the Sunbane. Or just lost. But that's not the main reason.
"Berek found so much hurtloam, and he's going to keep finding it, because he's
moving toward the Black River. The Black River comes out of Melenkurion Skyweir."

Thank you, it was mentioned only, I just glanced over that list of wonders while reading, eager to get to whatever was to happen.

Krazy Kat, could you please write a little more on your theory above? It appears to be interesting, but what exactly do you mean by the significance of one griffin and a loremaster each time? Also, what is your connection to the Firelions?

Eh, the reason there's no more Griffins is that Peter and Stewie were busy during TPTP

I say we simply take SRD at his word, he wasn't happy with them in his work, so, he quietly let them fade away

SRD's words were the first thing I quoted. Why take him a his word, he wasn't happy with them in his work - well, I am.

If a perfectly plausible explanation is possible, and that one even adds to the depth of the story - why should I refuse it?

[TheGryphon]

Gryphons are my favorite Mythological creature. Thus, when I encountered them in The Land, I was surprised, and upset!!!! I'm glad to read that Donaldson is no longer happy with their inclusion.

My take on the Gryphon is more like that written of in books by Mercedes Lackey and Larry Dixon. Powerful and Courageous, but not crass killers....

Also, in myth, the favorite food of a Gryphon is a horse. I can only imagine that a Gryphon might think a Ranhyn would be tastier, and that would just break my heart....

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Gryphons are my favorite Mythological creature. Thus, when I encountered them in The Land, I was surprised, and upset!!!! I'm glad to read that Donaldson is no longer happy with their inclusion.

My take on the Gryphon is more like that written of in books by Mercedes Lackey and Larry Dixon. Powerful and Courageous, but not crass killers....

Also, in myth, the favorite food of a Gryphon is a horse. I can only imagine that a Gryphon might think a Ranhyn would be tastier, and that would just break my heart....

Strange for me to see you upset with that. Different takes are always different, and for me it seems also that the ones from the Land are hardly evil in nature, I may try to explain more, but that will take spoilers. Should I, or do you see what I mean?

On the food topic - the Ranyhyn are of raw Earthpower, I wouldn't recommend any Gryphon checking out how eating that may turn out. Also, the Ranyhyn far aren't thoughtless animals, and that has many consequences - from any thoughtful Gryphon not wishing to eat a being like that to some very unpleasant results for any that decides otherwise.

[Krazy Kat]

Krazy Kat, could you please write a little more on your theory above? It appears to be interesting, but what exactly do you mean by the significance of one griffin and a loremaster each time? Also, what is your connection to the Firelions?

I say we simply take SRD at his word, he wasn't happy with them in his work, so, he quietly let them fade away

SRD's words were the first thing I quoted. Why take him a his word, he wasn't happy with them in his work - well, I am.

If a perfectly plausible explanation is possible, and that one even adds to the depth of the story - why should I refuse it?

Hello Effaeldm,

When I began this thread, I was attempting to put forward the idea that only one griffin, and one loremaster, were at both locations - within the story. I never expected anyone on the Watch to run with it, but the idea was burning too brightly in my mind, not to begin this thread.

I can understand totally the absurdity of the theory!

The story Korik reports to Prothal and the Quest just doesn't seem right. For example: Korik says, Irin snatched up a Cavewight broadsword and as she was being ripped apart, she beheaded it.
Korik's description of the events sound a bit far-fetched. But I'm forced to believe this, simply because the Bloodguard weren't the only witnesses to the event.

My point was, what if the griffin Korik mentions, and the griffin that appears at the battle of Soaring Woodhelven were both one and the same. That there was ever only one griffin, and one loremaster.
If it weren't for the fact that in the latter battle, the loremaster was the one to be beheaded, then I wouldn't be chasing down the commas-and-hyphens of what I feel strongly to be, an oddity.

Does this make a little more sense to you.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Hello, Krazy Kat, thank you for your explanation.

The thought that it may be the same griffin didn't occur to me, most likely and first of all because I didn't find anything strange in Haruchai's story - it may rather seem that the one telling the story is not too good at finding words, that's why it feels strange.

As for "one griffin", I believe they were rare, but not singular. I'll have to look for exact quotes, but I believe there were more mentioned - if only in a few words.

[Krazy Kat]

Hello, Krazy Kat, thank you for your explanation.

The thought that it may be the same griffin didn't occur to me, most likely and first of all because I didn't find anything strange in Haruchai's story - it may rather seem that the one telling the story is not too good at finding words, that's why it feels strange.

As for "one griffin", I believe they were rare, but not singular. I'll have to look for exact quotes, but I believe there were more mentioned - if only in a few words.

This is quite good!

~ What is a Gryphon? ~

Gryphon is a mythical beast that is usually described as half-eagle, half-lion. The front part are eagle, plus two pointed ears, and the hind part would be the lion part. But please don't get it wrong, a Gryphon is NOT a hybrid of some sort. According to books that I've read (yes, I did do a little reading on the subject...) Gryphon was classified as a bird. It's a species that's unique, and entirely original.
There are many ways to spell Gryphon. The two most common spelling would be Gryphon, and Griffin. I suppose Griffin is more common than Gryphon, but I found that in internet Gryphon were used more often (and that's why I'll be using Gryphon instead of Griffin). So... anyway, let's continue. This magnificent creatures make their first appearance around 3000 B.C., in Egypt and Mesopotamia. From then, they spread around the world, and unfortunately, as their existence spread, their symbolic meaning was also changed somewhere along the way.

A Gryphon can grow up to eight feet tall, even though usually an adult Gryhpon was about six feet tall. And they do look very grand, strong, and fierce. With this characteristics, Gryphon then become the symbol of a guardian. A Gryphon would guard something that is sacred, or precious, and it will punish those who try to steal or break the sacredness of it.

In the beginning, Gryhpon had always been portrayed as the guardian and the embodiment of what is good, of justice and of strength.


It symbolised a guardian, its ears showing attention, its wings swiftness, its lion-like shape courage and audacity, its hooked beak hoarding and tenacity. (Cherry100)

However, as time passed, people started to associate Gryphon with negatives meanings.

Gryphons, like many other birds, loves sparklies especially gold, and some also said that they love jewels, especially emeralds. It was said that Gryphons dug gold from the ground with their beak, and line their nest with it. And then there's this people called the Arimaspians, the one-eyed people who was always try to steal Gryphon's 'sparklies'. Some also said that there are also people who try to steal the Gryphlettes (baby gryphons). So of course Gryphons hate this people and always at 'war' with them.

Early Christian who also adopted Gryphons, said that Gryphons symbolises all things evil, especially greed since they love, collect, and fiercely guard their gold. And then the Arimaspians were said to be the 'good' Christian, and the gold would be the 'faith' of the Christians. That Gryphons were bad since they try to steal gold from Arimaspians. ....uh...hello?! Which one was actually the baddies? I honestly don't understand this part... Other argument (forgot the name of the person) said that it wasn't the Gryphon's fault that they love sparklies. They're animals, for God's sake. Therefore, it was the humans who try to have and steal the Gryphon's gold who were the greedy ones. I found myself agreeing to the latter idea. And at the end, Gryphon was, infact, being associated with Christ's Himself. Being an embodiment of two noblest creatures on earth (eagles-king of sky and lions-king of land), Gryphon then become symbol for Christ. The eagle part would be his divinity in Heaven, and the lion part would be his mortality as man on earth.

Nowadays, the myths of Gryphon has died, although the creature itself still exist in the form of gargoyles on some old churces, some artefaks, as well as company logos.