!!SPOILERS!! AATE complete novel discussion !!SPOILERS!!

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by Fist and Faith »

You!
Have!
Got!
To!
Be!
Kidding!
Me!!!

I just heard...
Fist and Faith wrote:“Have done, son of Loric,” High Lord Berek ordered. “I will not caution you again. Your crimes have not yet been truly answered. Your fathers will speak of you ere this night is done. Until you have heard what is in our hearts, you will withhold your denunciations of the Chosen.”
is followed up by a feel-good, Hallmark Moment??? A man-hug??? Are you f-ing kidding me?????? They coulda done that at the end of TPTP. Or any time after the Law of Death was broken. Instead, Kevin waited 6,000 years, and we waited a couple decades, for... that??? The grand resolution of this huge, 3-chrons-running plotline is...

Honestly, I can't believe it's the same author.
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Post by native »

Fist and Faith wrote: Honestly, I can't believe it's the same author.
The point I have been seeking to make is that the author is prioritising the themes over the credibility of the plot and the characters. In this chronicle he's obsessed above all with parent child relationships. The fact that he pulls this off is rather remarkable.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Just finished.

This book is just OK for me. I rank FR first, ROTE 2nd, then AATE. For the entire Chronicles, I rank AATE dead last, after TOT. I think AATE is SRD's "Attack of the Clones."

Random Thoughts:

My biggest problem is the complete lack of imagination for the bane I call "Mrs. Voldemort." SRD has been accused, unfairly, for ripping off JRRT for over 30 years now. Why would he ever open himself to a claim that he is stealing from JKR? Reading that section, I was embarassed to be an SRD fan.

Big surprises: deaths should be expected by this point, but the death of The Harrow took me completely by surprise, and Anele's death was absolutely shocking! So much for all that "hope of the Land" business. I was sad to see Liand die. I had grown fond of him since he became a real Stonedownor. Galt I can live without. We all knew Joan would have to die, but I did think there would be redemption for her.

Stave's son: It was obvious that one of the Humbled (I actually thought more than one) would be a son of Stave, so no surprise there. But seeing Stave cry? I don't know. Seems out of sorts for a Haruchai.

Back in FR, chapter "Sons" IIRC, Stave mentions that he has son(s?) serving among the Masters. Why doesn't Linden ask, "Which one(s)?"

I don't know how the Haruchai are going to react when they finally realize they've been serving LF all along. That's not going to be a pretty sight.

What I liked best: Covenant's POV, especially after leaving Linden to search for Joan. And, I LOVED the section where the Dead were discussing the events to come, with characters like The Theomach, Cail, Berek, and Mhoram (YES!) weighing in.

What I hated:
1)Mrs. Voldemort

2) Kevin and the manly group hug from Berek, Damelon and Loric. Why wait 8000 years to tell your son that everything will be OK? I always thought Kevin would get redemption.

3) Elena's end. I'm hoping that she'll be able to find redemption, perhaps working against Mrs. Voldemort from within to get rid of Kevin's Dirt. But, I'm terrible at predicting who will be redeemed (see Joan and Kevin above.)

4) Linden. (I couldn't hold my head high at the next THOOLAHfest without mentioning that.)
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Post by native »

dlbpharmd wrote:My biggest problem is the complete lack of imagination for the bane I call "Mrs. Voldemort." SRD has been accused, unfairly, for ripping off JRRT for over 30 years now. Why would he ever open himself to a claim that he is stealing from JKR? Reading that section, I was embarassed to be an SRD fan.
To be kind, it's only the name that's dirivative. SRD might not even have realised - my preferred theory. I suppose he could have been trying to be ironic, but if so it was ill advised.
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Post by Seareach »

native wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:My biggest problem is the complete lack of imagination for the bane I call "Mrs. Voldemort." SRD has been accused, unfairly, for ripping off JRRT for over 30 years now. Why would he ever open himself to a claim that he is stealing from JKR? Reading that section, I was embarassed to be an SRD fan.
To be kind, it's only the name that's dirivative. SRD might not even have realised - my preferred theory. I suppose he could have been trying to be ironic, but if so it was ill advised.
I'll go with the former theory on that one.
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Post by Vraith »

Only read the last 2 pages of thread, so pardon if I repeat earlier stuff:
"Mrs. Voldemort's" title/role is way way the heck older than Rowlings in fantasy/myth [both her real title, and the role she plays]...the name bothered me a little, but the twist on the archetype is interesting, so far...depending where it goes.

I'm not sure if Jerry's box trapped the Elohim or not [and if it did, just Infelice, or all of them]...but I have a thought that, though the Elo are scared of it....what if they go in, and are saved from the Worm...and then Jerry lets them back out? Boy, won't they feel silly!

I was surprised by Char. deaths...and, once I got over the surprise, I liked them. Some of them I liked a LOT.

And, personally, I liked that Stave succumbed to tears. It's about damn time a freaking Haruchai did. As far as I'm concerned the whole race should have been weeping non-stop for at least 3000 years. Stave's the "last hope" of them as a people...without the possibility of a GOOD change he implies, it would be best for everyone if they were slaughtered in their cradles.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Well, I'm gonna continue to refer SWMNBN as What's Her Name.

Glad to hear Mhoram makes an appearance! Damn, the best of them ALL, and he's had such a tiny role since TPTP.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by Seareach »

Fist and Faith wrote:Well, I'm gonna continue to refer SWMNBN as What's Her Name.

Glad to hear Mhoram makes an appearance! Damn, the best of them ALL, and he's had such a tiny role since TPTP.
Hang on...so you haven't actually read the book, F&F?
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Seareach wrote:
native wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:My biggest problem is the complete lack of imagination for the bane I call "Mrs. Voldemort." SRD has been accused, unfairly, for ripping off JRRT for over 30 years now. Why would he ever open himself to a claim that he is stealing from JKR? Reading that section, I was embarassed to be an SRD fan.
To be kind, it's only the name that's dirivative. SRD might not even have realised - my preferred theory. I suppose he could have been trying to be ironic, but if so it was ill advised.
I'll go with the former theory on that one.
What, that he didn't realize? Sorry, not buying that.
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Post by aliantha »

Seareach wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Well, I'm gonna continue to refer SWMNBN as What's Her Name.

Glad to hear Mhoram makes an appearance! Damn, the best of them ALL, and he's had such a tiny role since TPTP.
Hang on...so you haven't actually read the book, F&F?
No, he hasn't. And he has no intention of reading it. He's been pestering people by text instead to find out what happens. :roll:
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Post by Seareach »

dlbpharmd wrote:
Seareach wrote:
native wrote: To be kind, it's only the name that's dirivative. SRD might not even have realised - my preferred theory. I suppose he could have been trying to be ironic, but if so it was ill advised.
I'll go with the former theory on that one.
What, that he didn't realize? Sorry, not buying that.
Yes, that's what I meant. I"m guessing he became aware of it at some stage though....

aliantha wrote:
Seareach wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Well, I'm gonna continue to refer SWMNBN as What's Her Name.

Glad to hear Mhoram makes an appearance! Damn, the best of them ALL, and he's had such a tiny role since TPTP.
Hang on...so you haven't actually read the book, F&F?
No, he hasn't. And he has no intention of reading it. He's been pestering people by text instead to find out what happens. :roll:
That's just *so* naughty, Fist! I say we all stop telling him what happens and ban him from the AATE forum as well! ;) :twisted:
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Post by aliantha »

Seareach wrote:
aliantha wrote:
Seareach wrote: Hang on...so you haven't actually read the book, F&F?
No, he hasn't. And he has no intention of reading it. He's been pestering people by text instead to find out what happens. :roll:
That's just *so* naughty, Fist! I say we all stop telling him what happens and ban him from the AATE forum as well! ;) :twisted:
:twisted: I think we need a poll. :twisted:
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Seareach wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
Seareach wrote: I'll go with the former theory on that one.
What, that he didn't realize? Sorry, not buying that.
Yes, that's what I meant. I"m guessing he became aware of it at some stage though....
The first Potter book came was published in 1997. Well before even Runes. But, really, I don't assume he read those books, and don't imagine he knew about the name when he came up with the idea of her. Still:
Seareach wrote:
Creator wrote:BTW, did Steve understand that people will accuse him of using a Harry Potterism with "She who must not be named"?!
It's something his readers mentioned.
He knew about it before AATE was published, and chose to keep it. Not a big deal, really, imo. The name isn't the problem.


Seareach wrote:
aliantha wrote:
Seareach wrote:
Hang on...so you haven't actually read the book, F&F?
No, he hasn't. And he has no intention of reading it. He's been pestering people by text instead to find out what happens. :roll:
That's just *so* naughty, Fist! I say we all stop telling him what happens and ban him from the AATE forum as well! ;) :twisted:
I count the first two Chrons among the top several things I've ever read. Absolutely phenomenal in so many ways. In my emails to him that I posted here years ago, I told him it was one of literature's equivalents of Bach's and Beethoven's music. Glorious beyond description.

Alas, I'm done. Runes and FR disappointed me greatly, and the spoilers I read here before AATE came out tell me that I'd absolutely hate it if I tried to read it.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by native »

Seareach wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
Seareach wrote: I'll go with the former theory on that one.
What, that he didn't realize? Sorry, not buying that.
Could also have derived from 'She who must be obeyed' from the novel "She" written by H Rider Haggard,
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Post by Romeo »

Okay - I'm chiming in. Not because I feel like I have to defend the book, but because I'm one of the (silent?) ones who really liked it. "Warts and all." :-)

I don't understand the whole controversy about She. The character has been around since the beginning of Runes. We just didn't know that She was the thing powering Kevin's Dirt. And She had her beginnings with Minnie Mouserdinnderin (lazy - dont' want to look up the right spelling *grin*). Bringing Minnie back as a pissed-off god-like thing isn't that different than bringing back the Sandgorgons as bad guys. Or, let me put this more delicately, putting the Haruchai on the side of good that's not. He needs things to move along in a specific direction and set the stage for The End. And he doesn't have the pages to spare to present anything that's not important to the story he's trying to tell. Couldn't he just have Kastenessen drawing the power for Kevin's Dirt from somewhere else? No. I'm not sure WHY the answer is "no," but I am sure that She will have some vital part to play in The Last Dark. Elena wasn't eaten for nothing. Covenant wanted a distraction while he tried to convince Esmer to let them escape. The Dead answered, assessed the situation, and chose to do what they did. It wasn't like they just chose the nearest spirit that wasn't them and tossed it in.

The name ... is just a name. What else would you call her? Nameless One? She HAS a name. The point is that She can't hear it, or realize what it is, or something along those lines. I see this more like Jasmine from Angel. She had them pick a name for her because speaking her real name aloud broke her glamour. Hey - he needed a ring for the story, so he took it. He needed a title for a bad guy, so he took it (and, no, I don't think he had read any of the Harry Potter books before creating She - I'd bet he cursed a bit when he learned Voldemort's title, but HE needed that title, too, so he kept it). But the similarities stop there. Everyone loves Kevin so much, but they don't mind that there's someone called "Kevin" in the Land? (although I'm sure there's a whole thread dedicated to just that somewhere on the board *grin*) And until Linden came along, the only other "real Earth" character is "Hile Troy?" I had a childhood friend with the *first* name Troy, and knew family with the *last* name Hile, but the other way around sounds more Land-like than real-Earth-like. Hey - my favorite character of all is Bloodguard Bob, and it ain't because of the name. That dude has the 'tude! :-)

Linden IS super whiney this book. But do you think that wasn't planned? The Staff's fire has turned black. That isn't becuase she's winning any personality contests. :-) This, too, is going somewhere. I personally much prefer the chapters that are in Covenant's perspective. But remember how whiney HE started out? My God - he raped a 16 year-old girl! What an @$$hole! Who would want to read past that paragraph?! But I think when this is thrown on the table by someone who is reading the book for the first time, most (damn close to ALL?) of us here would be quick to - not defend - but to explain why that act took place and why it was so important to the rest of the story. SRD's been beating on Linden pretty badly for quite a while now. I see it as her being forged. And although she has help, she doesn't have the support from Covenant that she's been craving all along. She *should* be whining more - she's getting beat on more, and all of her decisions have come to rot, and it's just getting worse. When she was a doctor, it was more in her nature to let things roll of her back so she could focus on the job at hand. That person is long gone.

Battlestar Galactica spoiler:
Spoiler
Who here didn't like Ellen better when she died and came back as a cylon? *grin*
What else? Oh, yeah. Fist - READ THE DAMN BOOK ALREADY! :D :D :D :D :D
And then the ravens pecked out his eyes.
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Post by Seven Words »

I'm just BURNING to see what has happened with Lostson....Elohim all gone (or maybe TC's resurrection having happened) should release him from the geas. The awesome arrogance and self-righteousness of the Haruchai here blows my mind. They've come 180 degrees from the Bloodguard....the original Vow was an act of humility. I'm kind of annoyed over the whole samadhi-in-Sandgorgons schtick. It really negates Honninscrave's sacrifice, which was one of THE most moving scenes from ALL of the TC books for me.
I do like the whole "truth behind Diassomer Mininderian" line.....She devours, as does the Worm...run em into each other for mutual annihilation?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Romeo wrote:And She had her beginnings with Minnie Mouserdinnderin
Hey!! Where is mouseglove???

Romeo wrote:Linden IS super whiney this book. But do you think that wasn't planned? The Staff's fire has turned black. That isn't becuase she's winning any personality contests. :-) This, too, is going somewhere. I personally much prefer the chapters that are in Covenant's perspective. But remember how whiney HE started out? My God - he raped a 16 year-old girl! What an @$$hole! Who would want to read past that paragraph?! But I think when this is thrown on the table by someone who is reading the book for the first time, most (damn close to ALL?) of us here would be quick to - not defend - but to explain why that act took place and why it was so important to the rest of the story. SRD's been beating on Linden pretty badly for quite a while now. I see it as her being forged. And although she has help, she doesn't have the support from Covenant that she's been craving all along. She *should* be whining more - she's getting beat on more, and all of her decisions have come to rot, and it's just getting worse. When she was a doctor, it was more in her nature to let things roll of her back so she could focus on the job at hand. That person is long gone.
Linden didn't "start out" whiney; she continues to be whiney for six books now! She has the same help Covenant had as he whined through a book and a half: Amazing dwellers of the Land; Haruchai; Ramen... Instead of figuring it out, she continues to whine. She continues to refuse to trust. If she was being forged, she should be adamantium by this time.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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Post by aliantha »

...and Covenant denied the existence of the Land for three books -- until he decided it didn't matter. So what?

Romeo's right. In the 2nd Chrons, Linden was coming to terms with her feelings about her parents' deaths. She had compensated for her hate for her parents by becoming a healer. She learned to heal other people because she could never heal the first two people she should have been able to trust in her life. Now, in the 3rd Chrons, she's coming up against the limitations of that coping mechanism. She can't heal Jeremiah. She can't heal Joan. And now she's having to come to terms, not with her feelings for her parents, but with the damage her parents inflicted on her when they withheld their love from her. All that whining about "Covenant won't let me touch him -- he must not love me anymore"? That's *all* because somewhere, buried deep, she feels inherently unloveable. After all, her parents never loved her, why would anybody else?

Do you really suppose it's a coincidence that the two most important loves of her life are an unreachable child and a dead guy? Neither of them can *reject* her, fer cryin' out loud!

Romeo: I agree with everything in your post. Including the spoiler. :lol:
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Post by Seareach »

aliantha wrote:In the 2nd Chrons, Linden was coming to terms with her feelings about her parents' deaths. She had compensated for her hate for her parents by becoming a healer. She learned to heal other people because she could never heal the first two people she should have been able to trust in her life. Now, in the 3rd Chrons, she's coming up against the limitations of that coping mechanism. She can't heal Jeremiah. She can't heal Joan. And now she's having to come to terms, not with her feelings for her parents, but with the damage her parents inflicted on her when they withheld their love from her. All that whining about "Covenant won't let me touch him -- he must not love me anymore"? That's *all* because somewhere, buried deep, she feels inherently unloveable. After all, her parents never loved her, why would anybody else?

Do you really suppose it's a coincidence that the two most important loves of her life are an unreachable child and a dead guy? Neither of them can *reject* her, fer cryin' out loud!
Ali, you rock!!!! :D
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Linden was healed at the end of the 2nd Chrons. She resisted possession by a raver, fer cryin' out loud! She took ring and staff, and healed the Land! Two pretty serious accomplishments that could not have been done by a weak, whining, broken person who could not love or trust. As with Covenant, SRD took her from uselessness to glory. If we weren't going to get a Covenant story, she should have come to the Land this time sure and strong. Though facing a very different situation than the one she had known before, she should have been ready, confident, and trusting. And trustworthy. As Covenant was in the 2nd. Somebody should have realized who she was:
"Linden Avery? The Chosen?"
"Yes."
"Sun-sage?"
"Yes."
"Healer of the Land?"
"Yes."

No, we shouldn't have gotten a replay of that scene between Covenant and Nassic, but we should have had that feeling. Instead, her growth seems not to have taken place. It's as though a new character is the star of the Final Chrons. Maybe one who knew Linden, and was told about the Land and what happened in the 2nd Chrons. But who is broken, as Covenant was in the beginning of the 1st and Linden was in the beginning of the 2nd.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
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