Haruchi vs. Ramen

[Thorhammerhand]

Both are races that are have deep connections with/love for the land.

Both races have exceptionally long racial memories and neither are afraid to voice their grievances.

The Haruchi respect the Ramen. (Stave's compromising with them, {RoTE}, the masters bowing to their will/demands).

IMHO, the Ramen are what the Haruchi were striving to become when they took the vow.

Opinions?

[Fist and Faith]

Absolutely. The Ramen strive to serve the Ranyhyn perfectly. And they succeed. Because the only way to do that is to serve under the conditions that the Ranyhyn set. And when the Ranyhyn say it is time for the Ramen to ride, the Ramen ride. Even though it seems wrong to them, the true measure of what is right is the Ranyhyn's desires and needs.

The Haruchai, otoh, believe they are the ones who should decide how to define perfect service to the Land, or the Lords. The problem is this: You can't admire something so much that you decide to serve it, then force that thing to change to suit the terms of your service. When you do that, the thing you so admired changes into something you wouldn't bother serving. If the Haruchai came to the Land for the first time during the time of the Final Chrons, they would not find it so sublime that they would take the Vow. It's now just a place like any other. No Lords, no Earthpower, no glory. And it's because they made it so.

[Vraith]

Excellent point Fist. Their focus is so long, yet so narrow...they learn every possible lesson of failure/corruption, but don't...can't...even recognize success. They completely misinterpret the lessons even of their own people.

[wayfriend]

I think one significant difference is that the Ramen don't require perfection of themselves. If they fail, they fail; and they keep serving.

The Haruchai call Lord Foul "Corruption".

The Ramen call Lord Foul "Fangthane the Render".

There's a whole world of difference there. The Ramen define evil in terms of what it does to whom they serve, while the Haruchai define it in terms what what it does to the service itself.

So, sort of simularly to what Fist and Faith eludes to: the Haruchai seem to put their service ahead of what they serve, while the Ramen put what they serve ahead of their service. This leads the Haruchai to do seemingly silly things, like abandoning their service while what they serve needs them utterly. The Ramen would never abandon.

However, the Ramen way is just as extravagent as the way of the Haruchai. The Haruchai face a crisis when they fail; the Ramen face a crisis when what they serve looks extinction in the face. The Haruchai are capable of transferring their service, the Ramen are not. The Ramen, without the Ranyhyn, become nothing. There's danger in completely defining your existence in terms of someone or something else, and having no meaning that comes from yourself.

And that's the meaning of Ramen riding Ranyhyn. The Ramen are breaking out of their self-inflicted narrowness. I hope that they, as well as the Haruchai, find some redeeming answer in the Last Chronicles.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think the Ramen need any redeeming. I don't see their service quite the same way you do. In the 1st Chrons, the Ranyhyn would not leave, even though they were being wiped out. The Ramen were horrified, and were unhappy with themselves for not being strong enough to protect the Ranyhyn against the overwhelming forces sent against them. But they didn't doubt their service. There was no flicker of doubt regarding their purpose. No question of whether or not they were fulfilling that purpose in the best possible way. They were still fulfilling their lives; bowing to the will of the Ranyhyn, and protecting them as best they could, even at the cost of their own lives. They did not seek to force, or trick the Ranyhyn into leaving. Yes, they would face a crisis if the Ranyhyn became extinct. But that possibility did not make them question how they were to serve the Ranyhyn. Their service was perfect, and would remain so until the instant there were no Ranyhyn left to serve.

[wayfriend]

I don't think the Ramen need any redeeming. I don't see their service quite the same way you do.

Well, I would agree with everything you said about the quality of their service.

Let me start by suggesting that the changes to the Ramen/Ranyhyn relationship which began in Runes, with the Ramen riding the great horses, signifies something. I can only see it as a story arc for the Ramen as a people. Somehow, they are growing and evolving. And they would not be if they didn't need to be.

I would also suggest that the crisis of Ranyhyn extinction is significant. It would, if it had occurred, left the Ramen floundering without a meaning for their lives. That signifies some flaw in their form of service, even though that service cannot be criticized in terms of its execution. A society that finds no meaning for itself in itself has issues, in the same way as a woman who sees herself as having no value except for how she supports her husband has.

The Ramen don't ride. That has been paramount to their identity, and a fundamental axiom of their service. So Ramen who ride are, by extension, Ramen who are something different and/or something more than Ranyhyn-servants. They can discover that they can save the Land by being who they are, rather than indirectly by tending the horses that save the Land.

[Fist and Faith]

I would also suggest that the crisis of Ranyhyn extinction is significant. It would, if it had occurred, left the Ramen floundering without a meaning for their lives. That signifies some flaw in their form of service, even though that service cannot be criticized in terms of its execution. A society that finds no meaning for itself in itself has issues, in the same way as a woman who sees herself as having no value except for how she supports her husband has.

Yup, I definitely agree. But my outlook would be something along the lines of this... If the Ranyhyn became extinct, the Ramen would cease to be. That is, the culture; way of life; meaning of this group of people. But the group of people would still exist, and they would find new meaning. They'd be devastated, and many would probably kill themselves. But they'd take the strengths and purity of the Ramen, and forge new meaning with it. In the future, the new culture would look back on the Ramen, and see glory, and know that they came out of that glory.

The Haruchai, otoh, cannot see that. They see only failure. Check out my sig. SRD said that to me about the difference between Mhoram and Kevin. It applies to Ramen and Haruchai.

[ninjaboy]

During the thousands of years of the Bloodguard Vow, their service was to the Lords and to Revelstone. And this was not the whole race either. Only a small percentage of the Haruchai took the Vow..
The service of those who became Bloodguard cannot be defined by success or failure. Their service can only be measured in how well they endured. And ultimately their service was perfect, but the Vow which they undertook which was not.
The service of those who became Masters is different, IMHO. But both are still fundamentally different to the all encompassing way which the Ramen serve.

[wayfriend]

The Haruchai, otoh, cannot see that.

And yet, on the other hand, the Haruchai are not devestated when their service comes to an end. They can withdraw it. They can live without it. They can choose new things to serve: the old Lord; the new Lords; Covenant; Revelstone. So that's a strength that the Ramen can't match.

So I think the Ranyhyn are teaching the Ramen how to serve something other than Ranyhyn. (In preparation for their foreseen demise?) This corresponds to the Haruchai learning to cope with imperfect service. The Ramen were absent from the second Chronicles, so I think their story arc isn't as far along as the the Haruchai's is. But that's what I think I see.

The service of those who became Masters is different, IMHO. But both are still fundamentally different to the all encompassing way which the Ramen serve.

Yes. The Ramen are, in their own way, as all-or-nothing as the Haruchai. They serve Ranyhyn ... and that's all they do. And all they value. (Even their service to the Land in TIW is an indirect way of serving the Ranyhyn. They admit their imperfection freely in seeking the aid of the Lords to repel Foul. But they do so only to better serve the Ranyhyn. )

Whereas a Haruchai can shrug, withdraw his service, and move on with his life.

[Fist and Faith]

The Haruchai, otoh, cannot see that.

And yet, on the other hand, the Haruchai are not devestated when their service comes to an end. They can withdraw it. They can live without it. They can choose new things to serve: the old Lord; the new Lords; Covenant; Revelstone. So that's a strength that the Ramen can't match.

That's speculation. Just as what I said above is. We don't know how the Ramen would react if the Ranyhyn became extinct. Would they blame themselves, believing their service was insufficient? Whether they blamed themselves or not, would they be devestated? Or would the strengths we've already seen get them through it either way? Would they serve something else, as the Haruchai have done? Perhaps service, if it is pure, is the point. There's plenty of people in our world who think that.

But what we do know is how the Haruchai react when they feel they've failed in their service. They chose to forgo serving. Now, they control. They don't think that's what they're doing. Or, rather, they think that's the best way to serve. After all they've seen and done, they're still so damned blind.

So I think the Ranyhyn are teaching the Ramen how to serve something other than Ranyhyn. (In preparation for their foreseen demise?) This corresponds to the Haruchai learning to cope with imperfect service. The Ramen were absent from the second Chronicles, so I think their story arc isn't as far along as the the Haruchai's is. But that's what I think I see.

It could be that that's what the Ranyhyn are doing. Or it could be that they're teaching the Ramen to not serve the Ranyhyn, but to work together, as equals.

And I don't agree that the Haruchai learned to cope with imperfect service. They did not learn that the demise of the thing served is not proof that the service was imperfect. Mhoram understood in the end. "As long as something for which he could fight remained, he was impervious to terror. And something did remain; while he lived, at least one flame of love for the Land still burned. He could fight for that." THAT is service. And the Haruchai don't have a clue.

Whereas a Haruchai can shrug, withdraw his service, and move on with his life.

No. As I said, they think they are still serving the Land. Only now, they think they're doing it better than ever before. There are no Lords to serve, because they won't allow Lords to come about. They think that's good service.

[wayfriend]

We don't know how the Ramen would react if the Ranyhyn became extinct.

I am believing that TPTP provides clues to what would happen: "They all had Kam's driven, sleepless aspect, as if they could not rest because their dreams were fraught with horror. ... All of them, even the children, were haunted by the bloody visage of Ranyhyn extermination. They were afraid that the meaning, the reason, of their entire race would soon be eradicated utterly from the Land."

And I don't agree that the Haruchai learned to cope with imperfect service.

No, they haven't. But I think it's a process that started with Brinn and Cail. "It is agreed that such unworth as mine has its uses." Defeating ak-Haru by failing. And it continues now, with Stave. That's what I meant.

Whereas a Haruchai can shrug, withdraw his service, and move on with his life.

No. As I said, they think they are still serving the Land.

I meant an individual Haruchai. Whether you consider Bannor or Cail or Brinn or even Stave possibly. None of them were haunted or horrified at the prospect of the end of their service. (Of course, perhaps we just did not see it.) It ended, and they chose a new path, and got on with their lives. Its as if they seem to care more for the quality of their service than they do about what they serve.

As for the Masters, I haven't really been trying to address them. They exemplify a new phase of their existence, surely. But Stave seems to be discovering their error. My gut feeling is that, like Cail, Stave will learn something which will be brought back to the Masters and help free them from themselves.

[Fist and Faith]

I tell ya, I sure hope you're right about that last part! I mean, I'm Fist and Faith, for crying out loud! I've spoken of the Haruchai as flatteringly as possible, in dissections and in posts in the above forum. They've been glorious beyond compare.

Alas, they've fallen as far as can be. Short of wearing their hair as Linden does, I don't think they can get lower than they are. I sure hope SRD has a plan to redeem them. Their self-directed plight is an abomination.

[wayfriend]

I enjoy discussing the Haruchai with their greatest fan as well.

It has gotten into my head that the Haruchai will be redeemed, perhaps even due to something they learn from Covenant or Linden. I tend to see everything in terms of that potentiality. And so I see Stave's succession from the Masters, and his growing respect for Linden, as something hopeful.

"Redeemed", because I consider their quest for the ideal form of service, and their failure to find it, to be a plight that they succomb to over and over. Surely Covenant sees it that way. I would like that one day they find the right answer. Because of what such an answer would teach me.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I enjoy discussing the Haruchai with their greatest fan as well.

It has gotten into my head that the Haruchai will be redeemed, perhaps even due to something they learn from Covenant or Linden. I tend to see everything in terms of that potentiality. And so I see Stave's succession from the Masters, and his growing respect for Linden, as something hopeful.

"Redeemed", because I consider their quest for the ideal form of service, and their failure to find it, to be a plight that they succomb to over and over. Surely Covenant sees it that way. I would like that one day they find the right answer. Because of what such an answer would teach me.

Why? Because you're like one of the Haruchai seeking the ideal form of service?

[Vraith]

I enjoy discussing the Haruchai with their greatest fan as well.

It has gotten into my head that the Haruchai will be redeemed, perhaps even due to something they learn from Covenant or Linden. I tend to see everything in terms of that potentiality. And so I see Stave's succession from the Masters, and his growing respect for Linden, as something hopeful.

"Redeemed", because I consider their quest for the ideal form of service, and their failure to find it, to be a plight that they succomb to over and over. Surely Covenant sees it that way. I would like that one day they find the right answer. Because of what such an answer would teach me.

Why? Because you're like one of the Haruchai seeking the ideal form of service?

I hope for this for them as well...not that they find the ideal form of service per se...ideals are dangerous in that form, but that they finally really DO learn the right lessons. Even if it is one instant before they're blasted from existence forever, that their value as a people is their ability to value in itself and in themselves. They have [so far...and I hope this makes sense...it's a fine-line thing] taken their abilities for dedication and discernment...and lived them as judgement [in the worst/most rigid sense] On themselves and others.

[finn]

Good post Fist and Faith, as I read it I sort of thought about the role of people who provide aid and serve the public and public servants who serve themeselves in the manner in which they'll provide the aid....I wonder if SRD was being allegorical?

[variol son]

I have never really liked the Haruchai a group, but individual members of the race, including minor players such as Korik, Morin and Thomin (no, it hasn't escaped me that I've just named three Bloodguard who don't survive to TPTP) touched me. And Bannor, Cail and Stave are simply amazing.

I hope for their redemption though, and for some reason I think it'll come from Linden, not Covenant. I think Linden has more capacity to humble them in a way that they can finally accept.

On a side note, I've just brken down and read chapter 1 of AATE on SRD's website, and he has great quotes about both races that a very appropriate here. They're freely available, but I'll spolier them anyway. The emphasis is mine.

Spoiler

The Haruchai he knew, and the Ranyhyn, and the Ramen, although their names had fled from him. Of the people who had once been the Bloodguard, and once his friends, he remembered only sorrow. In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement. Now three of them had been maimed so that their right hands resembled his: the fourth had lost his left eye. Recognizing them, Covenant wanted to cry out against their intransigence. They should have obeyed the summons of their Dead ancestors.

But he did not. Instead he found solace in the company of the Ranyhyn and the Ramen—although he could not have explained in any mortal language why they comforted him. He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves. And that the Ranyhyn had warned Linden as clearly as they could.