Implications of Jeremiah's fate / Infelice's warning

[Hiro]

Just about finished with this book, 3 chapters left as a matter of fact. Many questions come to mind. But one in particular:

If Jeremiah's blank mind has been his defense against possession, and misuse by for example Foul and others... will the restoration of his mind not open him to the very use that Infelice has warned against?

[Orlion]

At the WFC, Donaldson said that was exactly the case.

[Hiro]

I was afraid of that answer. Foul is a smart being.

[lurch]

HA!...afraid of that answer? OOOHHHH to be returned to the child like innocent perspective on life; uncorrupted,,unmolded,,free of persuasion and dictates of " how it is"!..FREE..Unencumbered...nothing weighing you down from rising into ones Imagination and exploring ,,discovering,,creating! Free to be!!! Linden's " Love" will be the test of her. Perhaps Jerry will bring Linden away from her despair.

[Orlion]

During the interview, SRD talked about how when he would play chess, he would always figure out all the possible moves of his opponent during his or her turn. So after his opponent had taken some time to think his move, Donaldson would take mere seconds to make his move, and then the cycle repeated. This would cow his opponent to make a mistake or get more nervous, thus allowing him to win the game.

Thinking on this, I figured the only way to counter such a startegy was to make quick moves, or "do something that they don't expect". Foul has considered what all our heroes can do, and the only way they can beat him is to to figuratively just "move the game along."

[Hiro]

And Linden probably will need to trust that Jeremiah will find another answer against despite. And hope that her love for him has created the foundation for that, instead of her own leanings towards despite.

[lurch]

During the interview, SRD talked about how when he would play chess, he would always figure out all the possible moves of his opponent during his or her turn. So after his opponent had taken some time to think his move, Donaldson would take mere seconds to make his move, and then the cycle repeated. This would cow his opponent to make a mistake or get more nervous, thus allowing him to win the game.

Thinking on this, I figured the only way to counter such a startegy was to make quick moves, or "do something that they don't expect". Foul has considered what all our heroes can do, and the only way they can beat him is to to figuratively just "move the game along."

This is the great flaw of Logic,,when applied to Human Beings. Playing by the rules of Logic..makes one Predictable. Once Predictable,,one is easily Manipulated..as Donaldson's chess parable demonstrates...I really enjoy Donaldson's little line.." the logic of Despair." Despair IS the outcome.. when Logic is applied to Things " Human".

[Orlion]

During the interview, SRD talked about how when he would play chess, he would always figure out all the possible moves of his opponent during his or her turn. So after his opponent had taken some time to think his move, Donaldson would take mere seconds to make his move, and then the cycle repeated. This would cow his opponent to make a mistake or get more nervous, thus allowing him to win the game.

Thinking on this, I figured the only way to counter such a startegy was to make quick moves, or "do something that they don't expect". Foul has considered what all our heroes can do, and the only way they can beat him is to to figuratively just "move the game along."

This is the great flaw of Logic,,when applied to Human Beings. Playing by the rules of Logic..makes one Predictable. Once Predictable,,one is easily Manipulated..as Donaldson's chess parable demonstrates...I really enjoy Donaldson's little line.." the logic of Despair." Despair IS the outcome.. when Logic is applied to Things " Human".

It's not a flaw, it's a limitation. Logic is logic. You can have "flawed logic", but that's different from saying logic has its limitations. As an example, here's another SRD story from his website:

It's amazing what people can accomplish when they respect their limitations. I take a sparring class every Saturday morning, and everyone I train with has more speed, strength, and stamina than I do. As they should: they're all much younger than I am. Plus most of them can kick me in the head, and I'm just about flexible enough to reach their waists. But you know what they say about age and cunning. I don't stand around feeling sorry for myself--or, worse, drop out--just because I'm slow, weak, gasping, and stiff. Instead I work on timing, distance, precise technique, and tactics. In other words, I respect my limitations, but I don't use them as an excuse. And it's surprising how often those young guys with all their advantages get frustrated because they can't handle what I'm throwing at them.

[lurch]

During the interview, SRD talked about how when he would play chess, he would always figure out all the possible moves of his opponent during his or her turn. So after his opponent had taken some time to think his move, Donaldson would take mere seconds to make his move, and then the cycle repeated. This would cow his opponent to make a mistake or get more nervous, thus allowing him to win the game.

Thinking on this, I figured the only way to counter such a startegy was to make quick moves, or "do something that they don't expect". Foul has considered what all our heroes can do, and the only way they can beat him is to to figuratively just "move the game along."

This is the great flaw of Logic,,when applied to Human Beings. Playing by the rules of Logic..makes one Predictable. Once Predictable,,one is easily Manipulated..as Donaldson's chess parable demonstrates...I really enjoy Donaldson's little line.." the logic of Despair." Despair IS the outcome.. when Logic is applied to Things " Human".

It's not a flaw, it's a limitation. Logic is logic. You can have "flawed logic", but that's different from saying logic has its limitations. As an example, here's another SRD story from his website:

It's amazing what people can accomplish when they respect their limitations. I take a sparring class every Saturday morning, and everyone I train with has more speed, strength, and stamina than I do. As they should: they're all much younger than I am. Plus most of them can kick me in the head, and I'm just about flexible enough to reach their waists. But you know what they say about age and cunning. I don't stand around feeling sorry for myself--or, worse, drop out--just because I'm slow, weak, gasping, and stiff. Instead I work on timing, distance, precise technique, and tactics. In other words, I respect my limitations, but I don't use them as an excuse. And it's surprising how often those young guys with all their advantages get frustrated because they can't handle what I'm throwing at them.

Okay..I understand what you have posted O..I have a problem with " limitation". For me..its not the right word. Encumbrance is closer to my perspective on when Logic is applied to things " Human". Sure,,logic is logic. It builds bridges, skyscrapers,,jet planes and got us to the Moon and beyond. No doubt. Yet ,,you don't or shouldn't build a Human Being with Logic, You build a Robot with Logic, not a Human Being. Logic serves US to Express our Talents, Creativity and Potentials..our Humanity. Logic is NOT our Humanity tho. Logic is not Who We Are. Again..despair Is the outcome..the final result..when Logic is applied to things " human"..Why? Because WE are Not Logical Beings..WE are Not Robots..We ARE infinitely More than a Robot.

[Orlion]

Ok, and here is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Any sane human can only exist in a world of logic. We, as a species, rely on there being a cause and effect to everything in the universe. All our progress, anything we do that increases our chances of survival is based on predictions that assume that cause has an effect. As a species, we can only survive in logic as fish can only survive in water. Robots are limited in what calculations they can make. However, the more advance they get, the more they are able to perceive and analysis, I'd say that they would resemble humans more and more.

I'd say that the only difference between humans and robots is that humans are more complicated.

[Hiro]

Ok, and here is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Any sane human can only exist in a world of logic. We, as a species, rely on there being a cause and effect to everything in the universe. All our progress, anything we do that increases our chances of survival is based on predictions that assume that cause has an effect. As a species, we can only survive in logic as fish can only survive in water. Robots are limited in what calculations they can make. However, the more advance they get, the more they are able to perceive and analysis, I'd say that they would resemble humans more and more.

I'd say that the only difference between humans and robots is that humans are more complicated.

And humans are mortal ofcourse in a way that robots aren't. And how about self awareness and awareness of said mortality?

[Vraith]

Ok, and here is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Any sane human can only exist in a world of logic. We, as a species, rely on there being a cause and effect to everything in the universe. All our progress, anything we do that increases our chances of survival is based on predictions that assume that cause has an effect. As a species, we can only survive in logic as fish can only survive in water. Robots are limited in what calculations they can make. However, the more advance they get, the more they are able to perceive and analysis, I'd say that they would resemble humans more and more.

I'd say that the only difference between humans and robots is that humans are more complicated.

I agree and disagree...I think I've said somewhere before: rational thought makes most of human life possible...but it is the other part of us that makes it meaningful/valuable.

[lurch]

Ok, and here is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Any sane human can only exist in a world of logic. We, as a species, rely on there being a cause and effect to everything in the universe. All our progress, anything we do that increases our chances of survival is based on predictions that assume that cause has an effect. As a species, we can only survive in logic as fish can only survive in water. Robots are limited in what calculations they can make. However, the more advance they get, the more they are able to perceive and analysis, I'd say that they would resemble humans more and more.

I'd say that the only difference between humans and robots is that humans are more complicated.

Okay..what is a sane person?.what is sanity?: Going to war,,slaughtering our own kind every 50 years for the last few thousand years..? Survive??? People taught the only way to think and perceive is with Logic,,which makes them predictable and thus easily manipulated? If Logic makes all the choices for you,,then where is your Free Will? sane? or insane? Who is the appointed arbiter of what is True and what is False ,,and thus what is sane and what is insane?. Careful..owning another human being was once considered a right. People taught that Only Logic could possibly bring forth all the wonderful advances of mankind?? And what is an individuals Self Identity to Society's needs and wants and how is it that if a persons talents, creativity, potential,,doesn't suit the society he or she is in..that makes them insane?
Sorry..I ain't buying the self defeatism of "just more complicated". Any person's imagination.intuition,Love..is infinite. Logic is all about coming to a solution, an end.

Oh well..granted...the security of Intuition,,Imagination..Love can only be experienced if one goes there. Logic flaunts its security in every true/false table. It IS a matter of Trust. Over time..life gets boring..predictable..mundane when lived to the parameters of true/false tables. I have enough respect for what has been granted me,,which doesn't allow me , to settle for the parameters of Logic. One will never get into exploring the infinite if one fears it...se la vie

[Orlion]

Ok, and here is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Any sane human can only exist in a world of logic. We, as a species, rely on there being a cause and effect to everything in the universe. All our progress, anything we do that increases our chances of survival is based on predictions that assume that cause has an effect. As a species, we can only survive in logic as fish can only survive in water. Robots are limited in what calculations they can make. However, the more advance they get, the more they are able to perceive and analysis, I'd say that they would resemble humans more and more.

I'd say that the only difference between humans and robots is that humans are more complicated.

Okay..what is a sane person?.what is sanity?: Going to war,,slaughtering our own kind every 50 years for the last few thousand years..? Survive??? People taught the only way to think and perceive is with Logic,,which makes them predictable and thus easily manipulated? If Logic makes all the choices for you,,then where is your Free Will? sane? or insane? Who is the appointed arbiter of what is True and what is False ,,and thus what is sane and what is insane?. Careful..owning another human being was once considered a right. People taught that Only Logic could possibly bring forth all the wonderful advances of mankind?? And what is an individuals Self Identity to Society's needs and wants and how is it that if a persons talents, creativity, potential,,doesn't suit the society he or she is in..that makes them insane?
Sorry..I ain't buying the self defeatism of "just more complicated". Any person's imagination.intuition,Love..is infinite. Logic is all about coming to a solution, an end.

Oh well..granted...the security of Intuition,,Imagination..Love can only be experienced if one goes there. Logic flaunts its security in every true/false table. It IS a matter of Trust. Over time..life gets boring..predictable..mundane when lived to the parameters of true/false tables. I have enough respect for what has been granted me,,which doesn't allow me , to settle for the parameters of Logic. One will never get into exploring the infinite if one fears it...se la vie

You say easily perceived and manipulated, I say not necessarily. It all depends on whether you have the logic system defined. Each system requires postulates as foundations for things such as mathematics, science, belief systems. This is true, looking at what appears to me to be your foundational belief (how you espouse surrealism) I had in my mind a good idea of what you were going to post. And you didn't surprise or disappoint. Why is that? Because you like any other sane human being operates on the principle of every effect has a cause! Who's predictable? You are, I am, Avatar is, (danlo is not, though ), and this predictiablity only depends on the understanding of that person's logic system. Logic is more than truth tables (which refers to only an aspect of logic... I think it's called discrete or formal.)

However, if the predictor does not understand the underlying logic system of the person, his predictions will be off.

A couple of comments more: Logic and truth are not intrinsically connected. It's structure, or how we reason.

Second, I define sane as someone who adheres to the principal of cause and effect. Insane means you adhere to non-causality. And since we live in a universe of cause and effect, the insane are harmful to themselves and others because they do not perceive nor can live within these limitations (those of cause and effect).

Love and intuition and so forth are logically based. Love doesn't come from nowhere, neither does intuition. Personality does not spontaneously happen. What about free will? We have about as much free-will as a person on a train. We can walk around, play cards, but the train will carry that person along the track...or if for some reason it gets derailed, that person still can not do a damn thing about it.

[Orlion]

Apologies to the moderators that be, I seem to have pirated the thread

[Vraith]

Huh...I didn't know you were so purely deterministic in outlook Orlion.
I disagree fundamentally with that, but to bring us back on topic:
In many ways, this is part of the failure of the Elohim/Infelice, and potential of Jerry: They are purely deterministic; Jerry [among others] is the opposite.

[Orlion]

Huh...I didn't know you were so purely deterministic in outlook Orlion.
I disagree fundamentally with that, but to bring us back on topic:
In many ways, this is part of the failure of the Elohim/Infelice, and potential of Jerry: They are purely deterministic; Jerry [among others] is the opposite.

Can you blame the Elohim? They kinda have an awareness of the entirety of time! Sometimes when you can make predictions (as the Elohim have) it's kinda hard to view reality as anything but deterministic.

As far as being purely deterministic, I would reply that I am not. I hold the views of determinism and total free-will simultaneously in my mind.

(To elucidate a little bit, the postulates of any logic system have to come from somewhere... or nowhere )

[Aleksandr]

The Elohim aren't necessarily deterministic. Back in TOT Daphin tells Linden "In our sight many paths are possible." If you consider that concept in the real world, it points to reality as Quantum Physics shows it to be: there is no "the future", but rather "futures", plural.
IMO, the Elohim's problem is the fact that they see themselves as the center of everything, arrogance on steroids. This blinds them to possibilities that are independent of them, and they interpret as a "Shadow" beings like TC and Linden who are not part of their world.

[Vraith]

The Elohim aren't necessarily deterministic. Back in TOT Daphin tells Linden "In our sight many paths are possible." If you consider that concept in the real world, it points to reality as Quantum Physics shows it to be: there is no "the future", but rather "futures", plural.
IMO, the Elohim's problem is the fact that they see themselves as the center of everything, arrogance on steroids. This blinds them to possibilities that are independent of them, and they interpret as a "Shadow" beings like TC and Linden who are not part of their world.

I agree on the second part, I've said it many times in other places...their arrogance and assignment of the shadow is a problem.
On the first part...that isn't how they act. They admit the future is different, depending on current choice...but still think only one right choice, only one right path, and they know exactly what it is...and blame past and present of others actions, never their own. [and also, as I've said before, just like LF, they have never, not once, been correct except in the loosest most forgivingly rationalized way].

[native]

Has anyone suggested that the Elohim were actually responsible for Jeremiah's silence? It's exactly what they did to Covenant once, and it vanished when they went into their box.