AZ Congresswoman has been shot, many others dead

[SerScot]

Here's the story:

www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.sh ... 1&iref=BN1

I understand the doctor's are optimistic regarding the Congresswoman's condition. The Shooter is apparently an Afgan War vet. I know nothing more. God be with the families of the victims.

[eta]

Sorry Sindatur, hope that helps.

[Cail]

F-d up. I loathe an awful lot of politicians, but that's not call to shoot them (or send them bombs like happened a few days ago here in Maryland).

[[Syl]]

mobile.theweek.com/article/index/201117/is-palin-inciting-violence
www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/30/jon-s ... 18216.html

[High Lord Tolkien]

I thought those were nuclear missile strike targets. I guess we were lucky no one else thought so.

The fact that Sarah Palin is taking heat for this sad and laughable.
Sad because it's just going to dumb everything down even more.
Target is probably going to change it's name or something.....
Laughable because the liberals are having orgasms over how they can make this hurt her.

Horrible happening.
I just read a little girl was killed too.
I feel sorry for everyone involved.

[[Syl]]

I've been more neutral about it elsewhere, as I think it could be coincidence, but I just put it out there plainly to see if I would get that exact reaction. "liberals are having orgasms." Yeah, because we just love it when liberal (relatively speaking) lawmakers get gunned down after saying for months that something like this is bound to happen. It's that kind of perverse rhetoric, along with the tacit approval of the hateful rhetoric outlined in the above links, that do much more than bad feelings about the outcome ever will. Did Palin or anyone else make this guy do what he did? Of course not. Do they make it more likely to happen. I'd say so.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I've been more neutral about it elsewhere, as I think it could be coincidence, but I just put it out there plainly to see if I would get that exact reaction. "liberals are having orgasms." Yeah, because we just love it when liberal (relatively speaking) lawmakers get gunned down after saying for months that something like this is bound to happen. It's that kind of perverse rhetoric, along with the tacit approval of the hateful rhetoric outlined in the above links, that do much more than bad feelings about the outcome ever will. Did Palin or anyone else make this guy do what he did? Of course not. Do they make it more likely to happen. I'd say so.

Nope, totally misunderstood me.
The fact that Palin is going to take a severe hit on this is the orgasmic part.
Doubt me? Stroll on over to democraticunderground and take a gander.

By the way, I would say so too, which is why I said that I'm sad that it's going to make everything even more idiot proof in the future.

[Orlion]

after saying for months that something like this is bound to happen.

People get shot at. It happens all the time, so if someone says for long enough, "Hey, some democrat is going to get shot at", it's going to happen. That doesn't mean that the reason is because of a charged political environment... that's always been there.

Of course, that doesn't stop anyone from using this tragedy for their own damnable political ends.... (as pointed out by Syl and HLT, I don't think anyone's doing that here)

[[Syl]]

Sorry, HLT, but it just looked like everything I've seen from the conservative side on this. 'That sucks, but liberals are happy it happened because [blah blah blah].' As a liberal, I'm not happy. I'm pissed, and maybe looking to place a measure of blame where I think it belongs.

My son's scooter he got for Christmas was stolen today, taken off the front lawn while we were out. I told him time and time again not to leave it (and his broken down one the new one replaced) so close to the curb. I'm mad that someone would do that (we live in a pretty safe neighborhood), and I'm not happy about the monetary loss of it, but yeah, I'm also hoping that maybe my son will listen to his old man next time and not think he's just being a paranoid asshole.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I suspect the obvious emotional and drug problems from which the shooter suffered have more to do with his actions than his political views. Also, the fact that he was concerned enough about "mind control" and "new currency" as potential problems that he posted videos and online content about it; this serves to highlight his near-paranoid beliefs in conspiracy theories.

In short, he was a lone nut.

[duchess of malfi]

F-d up. I loathe an awful lot of politicians, but that's not call to shoot them (or send them bombs like happened a few days ago here in Maryland).

no one should be shot in the head (or be sent bombs) because they are simply doing their job.

no children should ever be shot and killed. ever.

this was a great tragedy and a really shitty day for America.

whether this was done by a lone nutjob who was committing suicide by cop or an unstable person/s who was possibly influenced by the over the top political rhetoric (from both sides of the aisle) that is far too common these days remains to be seen.

in the meantime a federal judge, a congressional aid, and a little girl are dead along with others, more people are in critical condition and some might not make it either when all is said and done, and a member of congress is in grave condition following brain surgery and is fighting for her life.

and let us not forget that the killer was only 22 - and for all practical purposes his life is pretty much over as well.

how can someone who is only 22 be that messed up? a news report I just read said he was still living with his parents. if so, even though he was an adult, where have they been when their child - still living with them - is messed up enough to commit mass murder? seriously - they never noticed something was wrong and tried to get help for their kid? or did they get help for their kid and this happened anyway? (my older son is 22 and living at home while he finishes up his college education, so this is all freaking me out a bit and once more I am thanking God for my kind and thoughtful and good very normal children).

and as someone who has spent her entire adult life working in hospitals - I can only imagine how bad it was for the employees at the two hospitals where all of the casualties were taken. hospitals tend to have skeleton staffing on weekends when the clinics and OR's are typically closed. between the sudden onslaught of media and sudden flood of critically wounded patients, today must have been sheer hell for the staff at those hospitals. kudos for them for handling the stress and pressure and saving lives with caring and grace.

prayers for those wounded, prayers for the families of the dead.

and pray for my poor divided country tonight.

[Orlion]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110109/ap_on_re_us/us_shootings_congress_suspended

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor said all legislative action "is being postponed so that we can take whatever actions may be necessary in light of today's tragedy."

I'm kinda not cool with this. Yes, the shooting was a tragedy, yes politicians may want to step a bit more carefully because they fear for their safety, but how long can you halt national processes? Is it really necessary in view of safety or respect?

[duchess of malfi]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110109/ap_on_re_us/us_shootings_congress_suspended

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor said all legislative action "is being postponed so that we can take whatever actions may be necessary in light of today's tragedy."

I'm kinda not cool with this. Yes, the shooting was a tragedy, yes politicians may want to step a bit more carefully because they fear for their safety, but how long can you halt national processes? Is it really necessary in view of safety or respect?

some of their co-workers have just been shot, and at least one of the aids is dead. let them have a bit of time to get to grips with that.

I have lost a few of my co-workers over the years and you do need a bit of time to get over the shock of it, especially when violence is involved.

(and I doubt they get much done in Washington over the course of a typical weekend anyway - except in exceptional circumstances, Congress strikes me as more of a weekday sort of job).

[Orlion]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110109/ap_on_re_us/us_shootings_congress_suspended

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor said all legislative action "is being postponed so that we can take whatever actions may be necessary in light of today's tragedy."

I'm kinda not cool with this. Yes, the shooting was a tragedy, yes politicians may want to step a bit more carefully because they fear for their safety, but how long can you halt national processes? Is it really necessary in view of safety or respect?

some of their co-workers have just been shot, and at least one of the aids is dead. let them have a bit of time to get to grips with that.

I have lost a few of my co-workers over the years and you do need a bit of time to get over the shock of it, especially when violence is involved.

(and I doubt they get much done in Washington over the course of a typical weekend anyway - except in exceptional circumstances, Congress strikes me as more of a weekday sort of job).

I can appreciate that this is a shocker, but this, to me, is almost like an entire police department taking the day off when a cop is shot. Certain jobs carry certain responsibilities, and sometimes carrying these responsibilities out can really suck. We don't need a derailed government. (I doubt things would be affected too much, but I also believe in reducing the victims of a tragedy to the least amount of numbers. Letting events curtail your day just makes you another victim. Though it may be understandable, I think it isn't always best...)

[duchess of malfi]

I see your point, Orlion, and even in shock we had to keep going (hospital, after all) though it sure wasn't in any way easy BUT

it is quite likely that Congress was asked to take a break by one or more of the federal police agencies (or FBI or Homeland Security) while safety procedures are being reviewed.

I really do not think that Congress should be criticized if that is the case.

[Vain]

Did Palin or anyone else make this guy do what he did? Of course not. Do they make it more likely to happen. I'd say so.

So what you're actually saying is that when Barack Obama said, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" he is also therefore directly responsible for making it more likely to happen?

[Horrim Carabal]

Anyone (on either side) who tries to make political hay out of a tragedy like this should be horsewhipped.

Someone who hears about such a tragedy and thinks "Ah but what were his political views?" as a first response is an emotionless douche.

[Cail]

Did Palin or anyone else make this guy do what he did? Of course not. Do they make it more likely to happen. I'd say so.

It's this kind of partisan crap that keeps tragic events like this happening. It never occurs to anyone that maybe people do dumb shit like what this guy did because they're insane, or because the policies that the victims are pushing are that unpopular. The health insurance mandate was/is unpopular with the majority of the country. That's not Palin's, O'reilley's, Hannity's, or Rush's doing......It's a lousy law that was conceived in back rooms using shady deals and bargaining, and squeaked through the machine by procedural contortions.......Exactly the opposite of what the Administration and Congress promised. If people are pissed about it, it's because it sucks and we were lied to about it.

Instead the mouth-breathing, NASCAR, us-versus-them crowd starts blaming "the other guys". Fuck Sarah Palin and fuck Barack Obama. Neither one of them had a damn thing to do with these people being killed by a whack-job.

Anyone (on either side) who tries to make political hay out of a tragedy like this should be horsewhipped.

Someone who hears about such a tragedy and thinks "Ah but what were his political views?" as a first response is an emotionless douche.

Absolutely.

[Zarathustra]

Anyone (on either side) who tries to make political hay out of a tragedy like this should be horsewhipped.

Someone who hears about such a tragedy and thinks "Ah but what were his political views?" as a first response is an emotionless douche.

I agree with the sentiment, but in a nit-picky way I must disagree. I think this reaction is entirely drive by emotion. Something horrific happens, and people try to cope with their emotions in various ways. Assigning blame is pretty normal. Trying to understand motives is not only normal, but reasonable. However, taking this into making political hay and saying that Palin's rhetoric contributed to this man's actions in any way is entirely irrational. That's just political wishful thinking. And kind of sick. It's the same kind of reaction we saw during last year's failed New York bombing where people were suspecting that Obamacare opponents were responsible, and explicitly hoping that whites, not Muslims, were responsible. When you have your own preferred group that you wish was responsible, you're going beyond trying to understand to trying to benefit, politically.

On the issue of motives, this just came up:

According to a memo obtained by Fox News with information compiled by the Department of Homeland Security and released to state law enforcement officials, Jared Loughner, the alleged shooter of Congressman Gabrielle Giffords, may have been influenced by a pro-white racist organization that publishes an anti-immigration newsletter.

No direct connection, but strong suspicion is being direceted at American Renaissance, an organization that Loughner mentioned in some of his internet postings and federal law enforcement officials are investigating Loughner's possible links to the organization. The organization is a monthly publication that promotes a variety of white racial positions.

"The group's ideology is anti government, anti immigration, anti ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government), anti Semitic," according to the memo which goes on to point out that Congressman Giffords is the first Jewish female elected to high office in Arizona. A recent posting on American Renaissance's website on January 7 begins with an article entitled: "Exit poll: Whites are Different." The site goes on to list anti-immigration articles. Investigators are also pursuing Loughner's alleged anti-Semitism.

politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/09/d ... JFyoO]link

Anti-Semitism? Good luck trying to pin that on the Tea Party.

We saw the same exact thing when the plane was flown into the IRS building Texas and the Holocaust museum shooting ... liberals tried to pin it on conservatives. But when that storyline fell through (their political views actually contained liberal positions), the stories died in the media. This has become standard practice for armchair pundits. It's simply a fact of our society that millions of people are out there waiting for their "predictions" of conservative violence to come true, so they can say, "told you so." And they're trying to force reality to fit their expectations.

[[Syl]]

So what you're actually saying is that when Barack Obama said, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" he is also therefore directly responsible for making it more likely to happen?

No, Vain, I'm not "actually saying" that at all. Do you mean that what he said is similar in nature and deserves the same scrutiny? Partially. Obama got some deserved flack for that comment, as I recall. However, it's not quite the same as claiming one's ideological opponents are trying, actively trying, to destroy our country and then telling people we need to 'take back' our country, loading that same speech with violent rhetoric. It's not like posting a "hit list" and then acting like it cannot or should not be noted and considered after someone on that list is hit.

Someone who hears about such a tragedy and thinks "Ah but what were his political views?" as a first response is an emotionless douche.

Funny, because that was pretty much my first response. "Damn, that sucks. A democrat? I wonder if he was a right wing/tea party nut." If that's what you want to call me, fine. Attempting a rational assessment of the cause and effect of this kind of thing achieves a lot more than a bunch of emotional hand-wringing. Sure, I don't get to pat myself on the back for how well adjusted I am, but I can live with that.

It never occurs to anyone that maybe people do dumb shit like what this guy did because they're insane, or because the policies that the victims are pushing are that unpopular.

Of course it does. It also occurs to people that when one of our elected representatives gets shot in broad daylight, maybe we should look at our political atmosphere (or a number of other factors) and determine if we, liberals and conservatives, are acting in a way that causes more harm than good.

Something horrific happens, and people try to cope with their emotions in various ways. Assigning blame is pretty normal. Trying to understand motives is not only normal, but reasonable. However, taking this into making political hay and saying that Palin's rhetoric contributed to this man's actions in any way is entirely irrational.

I would like to take a moment to point out that there are two other links under the Palin image. My point was never to say that Palin was responsible for what happened, even if I think the image itself is kind of sophomoric, irresponsible, and worthy of scorn. The point is that there has been a poisoned political climate, and people wondering how long until some nut snaps and takes it seriously (or too seriously, since this isn't exactly comedy hour stuff). There were even those who postulated something like this happening that only gives the impression of being connected.

Basically, the shit we say has consequences, elected leaders more so. In light of this tragedy, I hope we can expect a little more from them and from each other.

[Vraith]

It's simply a fact of our society that millions of people are out there waiting for their "predictions" of conservative violence to come true, so they can say, "told you so." And they're trying to force reality to fit their expectations.

Ya know, I agree that there are.
But there are also plenty on the conservative side making "predictions" about violent left-wingers, and the downfall of America.

I'll say, as I've said elsewhere: I don't care if these kinds of individuals/groups SAY they're beliefs demand violent action. The truth is they're simply violent [or crazy, or both], and their beliefs and/or delusions are just the excuse.