How bad is it?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I can't help feling that the majority view of the Last Chrons is that most of us only keep reading them because of our love for the 1st and 2nd, and that if we had come straight to the Last without having first experienced the others, we would not bother to take the trouble to read them to completion.

I certainly wouldn't have tortured myself through these last three books.

And it's a true statement that the Land and the characters belong solely to SRD. It's his story to tell as he sees fit. As someone who's been reading his books for 30 years, I think I'm well within my rights to be critical of the direction he's chosen, and critical of his stylistic choices.

I said a few years ago before RotE came out that I didn't think there was really anywhere interesting he could take the story. In hindsight, I was wrong, as I think there were a lot of ways he could have gone that would have been incredibly compelling, most of which would have gotten him to the same place that I think he's going.

Instead, what I've read seems like he took an early '80s text-only fantasy computer game, a yard-sale box of D&D paraphernalia, a Mad-Libs book summarizing the first 8 books, and a thesaurus, mixed it all up, and started typing up the results while watching Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

If I could find a single paragraph in these new books that grabbed me the way that his description of Thomas descending Kevin's Watch for the first time did in LFB (which is by far the weakest of the first 8 books), then I'd give Steve the benefit of the doubt. As a teenager, those 8 books floored me, and I made it a point to re-read them at least once a year. As a 30-something cynical married guy with a kid and a career, The Gap books floored me.

The Last Chronicles have made me want to toss the books on the floor.

There is all that you mentioned, and there is also more that is positive. You can focus on the negatives all you want but the positives remain.

On the other hand, I've had some fun on this forum predicting how the story will go in terms I would personally enjoy the most. It has gone quite the opposite way, but it's still salvageable as will be revealed in TLD:

1. When Jeremiah's mind awakened he faked being happy to see his mom; he's going to backstab her either immediately - when they hug he will snatch away the ring and/or Staff - or he will wait until the last minute to reveal his true feelings, when it does the most damage to Linden. His true loyalties are with Roger. Right now, however, it is best to lure the questors away from confronting Foul in his desmesne lest he acquire the ring instead of Roger.

2. Roger had not planned on Jeremiah's awakening quite yet, and at the time he should have acquired the ring and Staff from that anile Linden long before, in the chamber of the Viles. It should have been the case, but for the interference of Esmer and his father. Now their theft will be up to Jeremiah. His latest Cavewight army was just a diversion allowing cunning Roger to get rid of that annoying croyel, as it has already served, and failed, its purpose.

3. Roger is not foolish enough to think Foul will actually reward him by making him a god. In the long run, he must acquire the ring for himself so he can finish the job his father refused to undertake: to use the wild magic to blast Foul out of existence forever. In this, he will even be following the desires of the Elohim who will soon enough be vanquished either by a Jeremiah construct or by the Worm.

4. Kastenessen will follow the fates of his Elohim brethren. And when the Worm drinks the Blood of the Earth, Roger will use wild magic to protect himself and Jeremiah from the destruction of the Arch. He will then be free to take on the Creator himself, in hopes of becoming ruler of the Cosmos.

[Cail]

There is all that you mentioned, and there is also more that is positive. You can focus on the negatives all you want but the positives remain.

It's pretty clear that your taste is quite different from mine. I won't try to convince you that you don't have a clue what you're talking about if you'll agree to stop acting like a fanboy and telling me that I'm not looking at the positives.

Deal?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

There is all that you mentioned, and there is also more that is positive. You can focus on the negatives all you want but the positives remain.

It's pretty clear that your taste is quite different from mine. I won't try to convince you that you don't have a clue what you're talking about if you'll agree to stop acting like a fanboy and telling me that I'm not looking at the positives.

Deal?

I hope you read on instead of stopping at the first line of my reply. Because the rest of my response obviously implies (as has been the case since FR) that I have my own idea of what kind of story would make for a personally enjoyable Last Chrons.

[Cail]

And I really hope you read my entire reply as well. I haven't (and won't) ask for your take because it's clear that we disagree about the essence of storytelling.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And I really hope you read my entire reply as well. I haven't (and won't) ask for your take because it's clear that we disagree about the essence of storytelling.

There is also the essence of reading comprehension: I wrote, right at the top, and you quoted me, "There is all that you mentioned..."

Since I am saying there IS all that YOU mentioned about the Last Chrons, it would seem you are now disagreeing with yourself.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

By the way, I am on record here as saying that I gave AATE 3.5 out of 5 stars. Look it up.

So much for "fan boy."

This is too easy.

[ur-Timewarden]

On the other hand, I've had some fun on this forum predicting how the story will go in terms I would personally enjoy the most. It has gone quite the opposite way, but it's still salvageable as will be revealed in TLD:

1. When Jeremiah's mind awakened he faked being happy to see his mom; he's going to backstab her either immediately - when they hug he will snatch away the ring and/or Staff - or he will wait until the last minute to reveal his true feelings, when it does the most damage to Linden. His true loyalties are with Roger. Right now, however, it is best to lure the questors away from confronting Foul in his desmesne lest he acquire the ring instead of Roger.

2. Roger had not planned on Jeremiah's awakening quite yet, and at the time he should have acquired the ring and Staff from that anile Linden long before, in the chamber of the Viles. It should have been the case, but for the interference of Esmer and his father. Now their theft will be up to Jeremiah. His latest Cavewight army was just a diversion allowing cunning Roger to get rid of that annoying croyel, as it has already served, and failed, its purpose.

3. Roger is not foolish enough to think Foul will actually reward him by making him a god. In the long run, he must acquire the ring for himself so he can finish the job his father refused to undertake: to use the wild magic to blast Foul out of existence forever. In this, he will even be following the desires of the Elohim who will soon enough be vanquished either by a Jeremiah construct or by the Worm.

4. Kastenessen will follow the fates of his Elohim brethren. And when the Worm drinks the Blood of the Earth, Roger will use wild magic to protect himself and Jeremiah from the destruction of the Arch. He will then be free to take on the Creator himself, in hopes of becoming ruler of the Cosmos.

While I'm not saying what you've listed above wouldn't be interesting, I think you'd have rioting in the streets if Roger doesn't get some sort of comeuppance. It would definitely be a different approach to storytelling, although the end of the Land is in itself a different approach.

As long as all of the various story threads are tied up, I'm content with whatever ending SRD comes up with. I'll admit that one where Roger does battle with the Creator would drop my jaw a bit, but if he pops in behind him and says, "SUCK-er!", how can that not be fun?

(Side thought: If the creatures in the Land draw their power from the Earth, if the Earth is destroyed, what happens the power of Roger's hand? Does it become an ashen stump? Don't think we'll ever find out...)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

On the other hand, I've had some fun on this forum predicting how the story will go in terms I would personally enjoy the most. It has gone quite the opposite way, but it's still salvageable as will be revealed in TLD:

1. When Jeremiah's mind awakened he faked being happy to see his mom; he's going to backstab her either immediately - when they hug he will snatch away the ring and/or Staff - or he will wait until the last minute to reveal his true feelings, when it does the most damage to Linden. His true loyalties are with Roger. Right now, however, it is best to lure the questors away from confronting Foul in his desmesne lest he acquire the ring instead of Roger.

2. Roger had not planned on Jeremiah's awakening quite yet, and at the time he should have acquired the ring and Staff from that anile Linden long before, in the chamber of the Viles. It should have been the case, but for the interference of Esmer and his father. Now their theft will be up to Jeremiah. His latest Cavewight army was just a diversion allowing cunning Roger to get rid of that annoying croyel, as it has already served, and failed, its purpose.

3. Roger is not foolish enough to think Foul will actually reward him by making him a god. In the long run, he must acquire the ring for himself so he can finish the job his father refused to undertake: to use the wild magic to blast Foul out of existence forever. In this, he will even be following the desires of the Elohim who will soon enough be vanquished either by a Jeremiah construct or by the Worm.

4. Kastenessen will follow the fates of his Elohim brethren. And when the Worm drinks the Blood of the Earth, Roger will use wild magic to protect himself and Jeremiah from the destruction of the Arch. He will then be free to take on the Creator himself, in hopes of becoming ruler of the Cosmos.

While I'm not saying what you've listed above wouldn't be interesting, I think you'd have rioting in the streets if Roger doesn't get some sort of comeuppance. It would definitely be a different approach to storytelling, although the end of the Land is in itself a different approach.

As long as all of the various story threads are tied up, I'm content with whatever ending SRD comes up with. I'll admit that one where Roger does battle with the Creator would drop my jaw a bit, but if he pops in behind him and says, "SUCK-er!", how can that not be fun?

(Side thought: If the creatures in the Land draw their power from the Earth, if the Earth is destroyed, what happens the power of Roger's hand? Does it become an ashen stump? Don't think we'll ever find out...)

The hand. Well, I don't think he'll need any hands where he's going.

Ok, Roger doesn't have to win by any means. This is to an extent premised on Jeremiah first acquiring the ring for Roger (if that's how the story goes).

So how about this. Jeremiah makes a grab for the white gold while hugging Linden, but he misses the mark and a struggle ensues. The ring is dropped, but before anybody, even Stave, can scramble to rescue it, the tidal wave (or "tsunami," as Stave calls it) unexpectedly arrives washing everybody away. The original white gold ring, which has accompanied every story from book 1, is lost in the turmoil.

This leaves one white gold ring: Joan's, which has now fallen to Thomas Covenant.

This is going into far too much excruciating detail, and anyway my former tale did not leave room for both rings. Suffice it to say, Roger gains possession of the white gold from his father (perhaps he sent a gryphon to snatch it away), whereupon Roger then rides the gryphon to Elemesnedene, Foul's new home recently vacated by fleeing Elohim.

But - surprise! - Linden meets him along the way, riding - guess who! - The Worm of the World's End.

[To be continued...]

[ninjaboy]

I am transfixed by the immanent destruction of that which I love, and am thusly interested in the actions of those who attempt to preserve it, no matter how futile.

I read elsewhere on the forums that it was SRD's intent to not let anyone else write books with the Land as the setting, so I figured there were 2 possible outcomes:

1. The most likely, as it has been going on for the better part of 3 books now, is, as you mentioned, the destruction of the Land. When Kevin's Watch fell, I figured this was pretty much set in stone as the means to an end.

2. Something that I was hoping for though was with TC as the Timewarden and with Jeremiah's help, they would find a way to throw Foul outside the Arch (a construct of Jeremiah's), and then lock the Land in some sort of endless loop (remember the mobius strip in Jeremiah's bedroom?), so that the Land would be locked in time forever.

I mean, if the Land is destroyed, Foul wins, right? How many thousands of people would perish? Oh, the humanity (and Giant-ity, ur-vile-ity, etc.)!

As far as others writing stories set in the Land. Whatever Donaldson does inside the pages is not going to alter that one iota. Should the land be destroyed, anyone who chooses to can write stories set around Berek's great War, or before, during or after the RoD, or at any point where it exists. They can write of all the Giants adventures, or the Elohim. Just as people write about the worlds withing the Earthsea cycle, or LotR.. Legally, however, no-one can publish them. Because of copyright restictions, etc.

[finn]

I finished the book less than a week ago and am still wondering what my feelings are on many things, certainly I agree and disagree with nearly all of the comments I’ve read, but I’m still sorting out which is which!

I must start by saying that the earlier works benefitted from me being a younger reader, less analysis, the Watch did not exist for a good part of the intervening time and many re-reads which picked up the nuances and subtleties. I must also say that I feel a bit awkward offering criticism on a work I should (based on past performance) endorse sight unseen, much like criticizing the food quality to the starving at a banquet in somewhere like Rwanda.

Overall I enjoyed reading the book despite the journey being largely inside Linden’s head. But it did drag on a bit with large parts being internalized battles and a “hurry up and wait” program for the action. What I did not enjoy were a few moments that felt derivative such as the bridge collapsing a la Gandalf in Moria and the naming (or not) of She Who Must Not Be Named, who presumably has a true name like the insequent (shades of Earthsea?), but it smacks a lot of the common English nickname for the wife, (She Who Must Be Obeyed) which lessens its gravitas.

I was a bit disappointed that we still saw the book through Linden’s viewpoint there really has been nothing so far to make this the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant as opposed to the First Chronicles of Linden Avery. I also find TC to be too detached, from what we are provided by the author, he’s relatively cool about hunting down and slaying his ex-wife and his son, I can find little credibility in this especially as he's human enough to have a deep and abiding love of LA, how can he not feel anything like the despair, that we know he's capable of, in killing his wife, who he may not love anymore but must have residual feelings for...certainly he had them in earlier chronicles. His son is even worse, surely he'd want to rescue the son from madness and evil even if the task were impossible: instead he's almost looking forward to 'offing' the family.

The big thing for me though is that the story is now bulbous in the fourth book. There is so much to resolve in so many places (and times?), fighting so many bad guys and not even understanding the inter-relationship between the bad guys. then there's the resolution of the land, its peoples; Stave and the Haruchai, the remaining Humbled and the Haruchai (I can’t believe they will remain unmoved from the Revelstone party line), the Giants, the Elohim, the Insequent, the Creator, the Forestals, the Dead and so on and of course the main protagonists ie Linden/TC/Jeremiah.

How can this be dealt with adequately in just one tome?

My fear is that we will see no more journeying: I always prefer journeying as the descriptions of the places travelled through breaks up the ongoing nuerotic metal turmoils of LA, as there will not be time or space, unless we go for a three part fourth book!. Will we see solutions to problems that remove other problems, ie Roger, SWMNBN, the Skurj etc all being wiped out by imprisoning Kastenessen, a bit like killing the master vampire and therefore wiping out all the minions at the same time. Solutions to such a broad sweep limit the scope, even with everyone changing allegiances there must be a supposition that the reset button will be pushed, perhaps with a different outcome than expected, but I still don’t want this to end with a line like:

“I remember… I was, I am, Covenant.”

“No, the man in the Ochre Robe said, you are Adam”

………….. or some other such soap opera device.

I am concerned that there is still too much to do to be contained in just one more book and if we move from all psycho-story to all-action story how does that play out over the four book span of this Chronicle and in turn to the Chronicles as a whole. By being a part of "The Chronicles", SRD has linked the narrative to the whole and cannot deviate too much without the tail seeming to wag the dog. He could of course be planning to do a Kevin on the chronicles as a whole! The first Chronicles gave us all the Land, then he gave it to us again but broken, this time its without lustre, the choices seem to be save it or kill it....killing it is easier to do in one remaining book.

I am enjoying the development of Stave and Martiir, tho’ I agree the giants are a bit two dimensional. I also like the exploration of the world of the Viles, who have a quality of fallen Angels (fallen Elohim perhaps), who have within them qualities that the Elohim lost. Redemption of the Viles may be fantastic for the next book but then its yet another item on a long, long list. I was enjoying the tales of the stone from Anele and the development of the Stonedowner skill-set and was wondering when we'd see the same with wood, but the Ranyhyn alone now keep the narrative as the Haruchai "version" is told selectively, similar conditions to the eve of Kevin's desecration. What need of a Sunder and Hollian if we are planning to push the start-over button.

In terms of my expectations of the chronicles we are behind at the end of the 3rd quarter, but I am a fan so I expect coach SRD to pull the fat out of the fire. But I am concerned that the amount of capacity planning is looking decidedly shaky......I remain hopefully pessimistic or should that be pessimistically hopeful!

[Cail]

By the way, I am on record here as saying that I gave AATE 3.5 out of 5 stars. Look it up.

So much for "fan boy."

This is too easy.

Indeed it is fanboy.

[peter]

Re-reading the first and second Chrons I continually fin myself choking back the tears as one thing of another reaches deep into my heart and pulls chords that I did not know were there. (Foamfollowers 'one-word story' on the river, TC's asking Bannor how he stands it and Bannors inflexible response, Grimmand Honinscrave rubbing his recently punched jaw in the Sarangrave and wryly observing that a suprise meeting with the Haruchai was a weighty matter.... etc. etc.)

And when I re-read the last Chrons nothing happens. I read the words. The story comes and goes, but I can find no tears to weep.

[Cail]

Re-reading the first and second Chrons I continually fin myself choking back the tears as one thing of another reaches deep into my heart and pulls chords that I did not know were there. (Foamfollowers 'one-word story' on the river, TC's asking Bannor how he stands it and Bannors inflexible response, Grimmand Honinscrave rubbing his recently punched jaw in the Sarangrave and wryly observing that a suprise meeting with the Haruchai was a weighty matter.... etc. etc.)

And when I re-read the last Chrons nothing happens. I read the words. The story comes and goes, but I can find no tears to weep.

Precisely. And again, I grant that I'm a very different person than I was when I originally read the first 8 books. But damn if I still don't get caught up when I read Coercri.

I understand that the author has changed as well. My only contention is that for this reader, it hasn't been a change for the good.

[TheFallen]

I grant that I'm a very different person than I was when I originally read the first 8 books. But damn if I still don't get caught up when I read Coercri.

I understand that the author has changed as well. My only contention is that for this reader, it hasn't been a change for the good.

There's absolutely no gainsaying such an assertion of subjectivity. Were you the poster who quoted "If you want to hurt a man - take something he loves and give it back to him broken"? I can see the argument as to how this applies to Last Chrons, when directly compared to what has been presented before.

However, I'm still torn, maybe more in hope than anything else. I freely acknowledge the fact that I'm obviously no longer the teenager who was utterly engrossed in Chrons 1, but I'm still hoping that TLD moves more away from introspective psychodrama and that all the myriad loose ends are tied up with the care and respect that I think the Chrons as a complete 10 book whole should deserve.

Of course SRD is also 20+ years older and therefore equally changed and as an author, he can pursue whatever course and whatever narrative slant he likes - but somebody else said in this thread "we're down in the third, but it's not all over". Maybe he will pull it out of the bag?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

By the way, I am on record here as saying that I gave AATE 3.5 out of 5 stars. Look it up.

So much for "fan boy."

This is too easy.

Indeed it is fanboy.

Yes, way too easy, haha!

[Cail]

I grant that I'm a very different person than I was when I originally read the first 8 books. But damn if I still don't get caught up when I read Coercri.

I understand that the author has changed as well. My only contention is that for this reader, it hasn't been a change for the good.

There's absolutely no gainsaying such an assertion of subjectivity. Were you the poster who quoted "If you want to hurt a man - take something he loves and give it back to him broken"? I can see the argument as to how this applies to Last Chrons, when directly compared to what has been presented before.

Yeah, that was me.

And it's probably not fair for me to say that, as I have no claim of ownership to Steve's writing. With that said, I do have an investment in the story and the characters....They've been part of my life for over 30 years. And truthfully, I would have been completely content with the story had it been left where it was in 1983. I thought it was the perfect ending then, and I believe it still is.

Steve obviously disagreed, and decided to take his story and his characters further. I vehemently disagree with his decision, and with the direction he's chosen. I doubt he cares, and he shouldn't.

I have no interest in the pathos that is Linden Avery, and reading 80 pages of her thoughts while everyone stands in a meadow is not my idea of a compelling story.

However, I'm still torn, maybe more in hope than anything else. I freely acknowledge the fact that I'm obviously no longer the teenager who was utterly engrossed in Chrons 1, but I'm still hoping that TLD moves more away from introspective psychodrama and that all the myriad loose ends are tied up with the care and respect that I think the Chrons as a complete 10 book whole should deserve.

Of course SRD is also 20+ years older and therefore equally changed and as an author, he can pursue whatever course and whatever narrative slant he likes - somebody else said in this thread "we're down in the third, but it's not all over". Maybe he will pull it out of the bag?

It's that hope that's kept me reading. There's no way I would have given any other author the benefit of the doubt I've given SRD for these last three books.

Trust me, I wanted to love these books as much as I loved the first 8.

[Man Of Westernesse]

Finished it a couple of weeks ago. Didn't attempt to post anything anywhere about it right away, as posting anything while i was seething bitterly about a beloved author pissing all over a beloved series would have been ...... a bitter experience.

Now i've calmed down, and can barely be bothered posting my disapointment, or commenting on it at all.
I LOVE the first 2 Chrons, was reasonably happy with the first 2 Books of the Last Chrons, but where in hell did SRD get his inspiration for AATE? I'm speechless....

I'll buy TLD of course, and read it to the end (hopefully not a bitter one), and hope he redeems himself.
I'll re-read & re-read the first 2 Chrons into the future, as i've read them over & over for the past 20 or 30, or whatever-it's-been, years. Will i re-read the last Chrons? - i guess it all depends on TLD. I hope to hell i can.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It's just the nostalgia factor. For example, the older generation hates the new A-team movie, after watching and enjoying the original series; but the teenaged crowd loved the movie. It's humanly difficult to avoid the subjective factor to find the objective truth of the story itself. I personally can't stand the new A-team, but what would my reaction be if I had never seen the original series?

[Zarathustra]

It's just the nostalgia factor.

Are you talking about yourself here? Or are you trying to explain to other people the source of their own opinions? I can only speak for myself ... for me nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Do you think others here are just lying to themselves when they offer 1000s of words to explain their feelings which don't refer to this nostalgia factor? Several people (for example, Cail in this thread) have purposely taken into account their age when they first read the Chronicles, and then systematically eliminated this as a factor with (in my opinion) convincing reasoning. Given that most of us read this when we were young, are some people just better at ignoring their nostalgic feelings than others?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It's just the nostalgia factor.

Are you talking about yourself here? Or are you trying to explain to other people the source of their own opinions? I can only speak for myself ... for me nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Do you think others here are just lying to themselves when they offer 1000s of words to explain their feelings which don't refer to this nostalgia factor? Several people (for example, Cail in this thread) have purposely taken into account their age when they first read the Chronicles, and then systematically eliminated this as a factor with (in my opinion) convincing reasoning. Given that most of us read this when we were young, are some people just better at ignoring their nostalgic feelings than others?

Age? No, it's nostalgia. My A-Team nostalgia example was intended to be applied to the Chrons, particularly since I see so many negative comparisons between the Last Chrons and the previous two. Those comparisons are the telling factor, not people's ages. The teenagers I referred to were never exposed to the original A-Team, and my point has nothing to do with anything so ad hom as them being teenagers. As a friend of mine said recently (ad hom again), "Oh well, what do teenagers know?" It's not what they know, it's what they don't know about the original A-Team series. And in the case of the Last Chrons, it's about what people know about the first two and the memory of their reactions at the time of first reading. Their reactions to the Last Chrons are necessarily colored by these previous experiences (as can obviously be seen in their comments). Nostalgia also makes the first two Chrons appear better than they really were, the long and boring sections have taken a backseat to the dramatic parts and are no longer remembered as strongly.

But I suppose a thread such as this is necessary to allow some blowing off of nostalgia steam among the disappointed fanboy crowd. And I myself am not unaffected by the nostalgia factor by any means. But I have to ignore it because, as subjective, it stands in the way of my attempts at appreciation for what Donaldson is trying to do here.