Religious paralells

[Ananda]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I did a search, but didn't see a topic on this precise issue, though I imagine that everything here has been discussed at length already and I just missed it. For that reason, it's hard to want to start new threads. But, I will anyway.

I'll start this by saying I am not a religious person and therefore have no vested interest in one outcome or another.

In the final book of the first series, we have Covenant going through many trials, as it were. He is in his own personal hell. During his time in the real world, he confronts people doing a faith healing festival just prior to the time of Easter. Given his straits, he is seduced by the ideals these people put forth. Indeed, the ideals of love, forgiveness, etc. sounds just fine probably to anyone listening.

However, these people reject him and are proven to profess ideals that they themselves do not believe. These people are out for themselves. they go so far as to beat TC for daring to be who he said he was, thus 'mocking' their 'faith'.

If there are more instances of this type of thing prior to him entering the land, I don't recall.

So, he gets to the land and sacrifices himself for the good of others in the end, being driven by kindness, not hate.

At the end of the book, the creator intervenes and resurrects him, so to speak.

One minute he’s in allergic shock, and dying from it because his body’s too weak and infected and poisoned to fight back-and the next-Pulse firm, respiration regular, pupillary reactions normal, skin tone improving. I’ll tell you what it is. It’s a goddamn miracle, that’s what it is.

The first thing TC hears is a nurse implying that they could still somehow let him die because of how he makes people in the town feel.

Then, we have a second doctor who is moaning for being called out of church on easter who says, ironically,

“I hope you’ve got good reason for calling me. I don’t give up church for just anyone-especially on Easter.”

And this doctor continues,

“Come, now,” the older man murmured. “I don’t believe in miracles-neither do you.”

To me, this all screamed of parallels with the mythos of christianity and events in the real world colliding. I'm curious as to how people interpret this part of the book.

My opinion is that it is meant to be a commentary on people paying lip service to the myths they say they are invested in and live by and how they really are. How the 'good' people don't actually follow the things that make them think that they are the 'good' people. I don't think it goes deeper than that, really. I think it is just an interesting parallel used to underscore hypocrisy and people's failure to see the good that is right in front of them.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear more thoughts on the topic or maybe a definitive answer someone has read in the GI.

[High Lord Tolkien]

One of the thinks I like best about the Chronicles is the lack of religious overtones.
I just took those two doctors talking to each other as how 2 science based doctors might banter around.
Venting about coming in on a day off type of thing.

If there are religious parallels I'd be disappointed actually.

There was definitely something MAGICAL that happened.
TC's recovery was miraculous or astonishing in that regard.

[Vraith]

I don't think the particular moment you mention is discussed, but it seems you might find this thread interesting:

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16749&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=chronicles+christianity&start=0

[Ananda]

I just took those two doctors talking to each other as how 2 science based doctors might banter around.
Venting about coming in on a day off type of thing.

Well, I can understand the hope that it is that, but I think it's not just luck that this all happens around easter and that the moment of TC's 'miracle' is on easter and both doctors go out of their way to talk about this in a way that's meant to sound natural, as you say- just doctors venting. And, I highly doubt that the author could have just as well had this on swedens flag day and the doctor says, "Lars, I can't believe that you called me in today! I was just about to get a great golf score!" and got the same point across. The doctor's words make a point to say it just so- " I don’t give up church for just anyone-especially on Easter". I think that 'just anyone' is loaded for the reader and the whole thing is definitely of significance.

As I say, I have no hopes for some greater meaning, but this is pretty blatant to me. What I don't contend is that this in some way makes the book an entire religious parallel. As I said, I took it as a backhand to the 'good people' who don't live by what they profess and shun the 'miracles' they see right in front of them.

Has SRD ever said anything about this topic before? I'll admit that it didn't strike me when I read this as a teen, but reading it as an adult, those few paragraphs at the end really were like a brick to the head in that they were not subtle.

[Orlion]

We all have to work out our own salvation, with fear and trembling (I'm paraphrasing someone, but I can't remember my own source <sigh>). It can't be given to us; so things like ritual and religion are usually (but certainly not always) useless. And to the extent that religion and ritual distract us from the fact that we have to work it out for ourselves, they can be an active hindrance to redemption.

3/17/2010

As far as my search has taken me, I think this quote might interest you. Covenant wants to work out his own salvation, he wanted to use religion and ritual to help him. However, that's not what they were for, they were a distraction to the church goers and the doctors.

[Ananda]

We all have to work out our own salvation, with fear and trembling (I'm paraphrasing someone, but I can't remember my own source <sigh>). It can't be given to us; so things like ritual and religion are usually (but certainly not always) useless. And to the extent that religion and ritual distract us from the fact that we have to work it out for ourselves, they can be an active hindrance to redemption.

3/17/2010

As far as my search has taken me, I think this quote might interest you. Covenant wants to work out his own salvation, he wanted to use religion and ritual to help him. However, that's not what they were for, they were a distraction to the church goers and the doctors.

I like that one. Thanks.

So, it seems it was maybe less a backhand than a drawn distinction between people actively seeking their personal 'salvation'* and those who pay lip service to it but make no effort for themselves. Well, in a way, I guess it could still be considered a backhand, or at least a call to personal responsibility for the reader, perhaps?

It struck me as it should be something rather important since he hit us with it like a brick at the end of the first series- that we should take something away from it.

Maybe his intent is to shock the 'good' reader out of complacency by showing these 'good people' to be fooling themselves and we are to see ourselves reflected in them?

This quote you've posted also brings Siddhartha Gautama's ideas to mind with his hindu reformation movement that led to buddhism. No religion, no ritual, et cetera.

* it seems that salvation, from his quote refers to a 'redemption' of some sort, but a redemption in whose eyes, I wonder? The self? Something outside the self? Or is this as simple as another way to say that one must work out their own issues?

[Linna Heartbooger]

One of the thinks I like best about the Chronicles is the lack of religious overtones...

If there are religious parallels I'd be disappointed actually.

I, otoh, was introduced to the Chrons by a friend with this line:

People don't expect a Christian book to begin with the main hero raping someone.

So I was quite crestfallen when another friend of mine attended a book signing and heard SRD say stuff that indicated he was not a Christian.

Thanks for the topic, Ananda! (I love this stuff. ...duh.)

[Holsety]

Good topic.

* it seems that salvation, from his quote refers to a 'redemption' of some sort, but a redemption in whose eyes, I wonder? The self? Something outside the self? Or is this as simple as another way to say that one must work out their own issues?

The beginning of the chronicles sees Covenant devastated by his leprosy and by his divorce - and, I think, moreso the second than the first insofar as the two can be separated. There's a line somewhere in LFB that goes something like "Joan, how could you give up everything?"

Left with nothing, Covenant still holds on to life because "death is too easy." It is with these words, IIRC, that the beggar responds to Covenant with some sort of somber, accepting acknowledgment as though he has chosen his champion. Covenant doesn't have hope but he has a will to live anyway - he's ignoring death as best he can just as the community exiled him.

In the Illearth War, when confronted with Joan's voice over the telephone, Covenant doesn't know how to respond. I'm still not sure whether to interpret his summoning to the Land as an escape from responsibility (because he blames the Lords for summoning him when really he couldn't find the words to talk to Joan anyway), a negative interference with his "real" life along the lines of Mhoram's summoning in The Power that Preserves which he has to deny to rescue the girl (because he would have found the words to speak with Joan), or some sort of combination of the two. But Donaldson is, I think, trying to hold the divorce as an important, if somewhat alienated from us for the most part, element of the plot: Covenant's holding on to the ring despite it being bereft of standard meaning is even brought forth by Hile Troy as a contradiction at some point in the Illearth War. If he's willing to hold on to the ring in memory of a marriage that's no more, he should be willing to fight for a land that isn't real, since the marriage he's holding on to isn't real either (apparently Hile Troy doesn't fully believe in the undisputed right to personal property).

The Creator isn't just upholding the existence of Covenant (and Linden) for the sake of the land, in the same way that Foul is an active participant in the despair of the cultists in the second chronicles. In the second chronicles, Joan becomes a troubled individual who TC (and LA I think?) is trying to help. I think that helping her may be a vital aspect of redemption in the series.

So salvation is something about the way that the self weighs one's responsibilities to the outside world. This is in part determined by how much one treasures the world and its inhabitants.

Somehow the paragraphs besides the last feel relevant.

[Orlion]

Good post, Holsety, just be careful with the Last Chronicles references (nothing too 'beyond the description of Runes on Amazon, so I haven't changed anything).

[Holsety]

Good post, Holsety, just be careful with the Last Chronicles references (nothing too 'beyond the description of Runes on Amazon, so I haven't changed anything).

I removed it all the same.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It seems very unlike Joan to call up Covenant asking for a reconciliation. It makes for a nice brutal scene, both emotionally to the reader and physically to Covenant. The fact that Joan was involved makes the scene harder to bear, but still, it's not portrayed in her characterization as someone who would like to kiss and make up with a leper.

[Ananda]

It seems very unlike Joan to call up Covenant asking for a reconciliation. It makes for a nice brutal scene, both emotionally to the reader and physically to Covenant. The fact that Joan was involved makes the scene harder to bear, but still, it's not portrayed in her characterization as someone who would like to kiss and make up with a leper.

I think Joan has been portrayed as a selfish individual, and a very scared one. We could take the call as being all about her and trying to fix her guilt and fears- to make her feel better, not Covenant. This could probably be the reason she never calls back. Since it was all about her and Covenant didn't give her what she wanted and it was 'insulting' and 'hurtful' of him.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It seems very unlike Joan to call up Covenant asking for a reconciliation. It makes for a nice brutal scene, both emotionally to the reader and physically to Covenant. The fact that Joan was involved makes the scene harder to bear, but still, it's not portrayed in her characterization as someone who would like to kiss and make up with a leper.

I think Joan has been portrayed as a selfish individual, and a very scared one. We could take the call as being all about her and trying to fix her guilt and fears- to make her feel better, not Covenant. This could probably be the reason she never calls back. Since it was all about her and Covenant didn't give her what she wanted and it was 'insulting' and 'hurtful' of him.

Yes, she thought he hung up on her or refused to respond to her. Perhaps she called during a weak moment of guilt or a spasm of pity over Covenant and his condition. She's definitely selfish but she does have a heart, it just turns more toward horses than humans.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

One of the thinks I like best about the Chronicles is the lack of religious overtones.
I just took those two doctors talking to each other as how 2 science based doctors might banter around.
Venting about coming in on a day off type of thing.

If there are religious parallels I'd be disappointed actually.

There was definitely something MAGICAL that happened.
TC's recovery was miraculous or astonishing in that regard.

Agreed. I recall that certain parts of the GI dismiss the whole religious context interpretation. There is no principle being represented here, either for or against. All I see, and all I have ever seen, is a gimmick: ambiguity. "Then the little boy fell out of bed and woke up." Or Dorothy at the end of Wizard of Oz (movie version). Was it real? Was it a dream? We'll never know. It's a mystery, and that's part of the charm of the Chronicles.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'll just add that when Donaldson presents religion in a bad light, as cultish or whatever, that doesn't mean he is anti-religion. (But then, Tolkien gave the same kind of denials about his LOTR.)

[Holsety]

It seems very unlike Joan to call up Covenant asking for a reconciliation. It makes for a nice brutal scene, both emotionally to the reader and physically to Covenant. The fact that Joan was involved makes the scene harder to bear, but still, it's not portrayed in her characterization as someone who would like to kiss and make up with a leper.

I think Joan has been portrayed as a selfish individual, and a very scared one. We could take the call as being all about her and trying to fix her guilt and fears- to make her feel better, not Covenant. This could probably be the reason she never calls back. Since it was all about her and Covenant didn't give her what she wanted and it was 'insulting' and 'hurtful' of him.

I think it could also be about her - specifically, she might have already gotten involved in the cult which appears in the second chronicles. I seem to remember her saying she was scared and afraid or something like that over the course of the call.

[Linna Heartbooger]

In the Illearth War, when confronted with Joan's voice over the telephone, Covenant doesn't know how to respond. I'm still not sure whether to interpret his summoning to the Land as an escape from responsibility (because he blames the Lords for summoning him when really he couldn't find the words to talk to Joan anyway), a negative interference with his "real" life along the lines of Mhoram's summoning in The Power that Preserves which he has to deny to rescue the girl (because he would have found the words to speak with Joan), or some sort of combination of the two. But Donaldson is, I think, trying to hold the divorce as an important, if somewhat alienated from us for the most part, element of the plot: Covenant's holding on to the ring despite it being bereft of standard meaning is even brought forth by Hile Troy as a contradiction at some point in the Illearth War. If he's willing to hold on to the ring in memory of a marriage that's no more, he should be willing to fight for a land that isn't real, since the marriage he's holding on to isn't real either (apparently Hile Troy doesn't fully believe in the undisputed right to personal property).

Thanks a bunch, Holsety. Good stuff. A lot of stuff I'd never caught / thought about.

So salvation is something about the way that the self weighs one's responsibilities to the outside world. This is in part determined by how much one treasures the world and its inhabitants.

Somehow the paragraphs besides the last feel relevant.

I'm sure there's a reason(s) for that... not gonna pretend to try to figure it out though!

[Nekrimah]

As for possible Christian parallels/undertones/references in the Land, I thought it would be Amok.

Like Jesus, Amok calls himself the Way and the Door to the greater mystery: the Seventh Ward. He is very obtuse about it until one of the Lords guesses that he is a guide.

But Amok is not himself the secret of the Seventh Ward; to push this reference to Christianity would be to say Jesus is not God, but a guide to God.

Might be pushing a bit far for the Christians though.

[Holsety]

As for possible Christian parallels/undertones/references in the Land, I thought it would be Amok.

Like Jesus, Amok calls himself the Way and the Door to the greater mystery: the Seventh Ward. He is very obtuse about it until one of the Lords guesses that he is a guide.

But Amok is not himself the secret of the Seventh Ward; to push this reference to Christianity would be to say Jesus is not God, but a guide to God.

Might be pushing a bit far for the Christians though.

Here's the thing, Amok also refers to himself as the seventh ward (and there's a collective gasp), I think at the loresraat meeting in Revelwood when HT catches him. I'll dig this up if you want me to.

So I'm not sure I agree with the third paragraph there. It's still an interesting connection - I never studied the New Testament, so I didn't know that Jesus called himself that.

[Orlion]

As for possible Christian parallels/undertones/references in the Land, I thought it would be Amok.

Like Jesus, Amok calls himself the Way and the Door to the greater mystery: the Seventh Ward. He is very obtuse about it until one of the Lords guesses that he is a guide.

But Amok is not himself the secret of the Seventh Ward; to push this reference to Christianity would be to say Jesus is not God, but a guide to God.

Might be pushing a bit far for the Christians though.

Here's the thing, Amok also refers to himself as the seventh ward (and there's a collective gasp), I think at the loresraat meeting in Revelwood when HT catches him. I'll dig this up if you want me to.

So I'm not sure I agree with the third paragraph there. It's still an interesting connection - I never studied the New Testament, so I didn't know that Jesus called himself that.

It's actually a lot closer than either of you might think. In some scriptures (John's gospel, I believe) Jesus announces that his purpose is to 'reveal the Father' to the ancient Palestinians/Israelians/whatevs.