The Creator... minor league godlet or hustler?
Moderators: dlbpharmd, High Lord Tolkien
- TheFallen
- Master of Innominate Surquedry
- Posts: 3155
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:16 pm
- Location: Guildford, UK
- Has thanked: 1 time
The Creator... minor league godlet or hustler?
I've been thinking about the whole free will thing again, but this time with reference to the Creator, rather than TC. I'm not sure logic can or even should be applied here, but let's give it a try...
The Creator's clearly not omnipotent, because if He was, this causes problems with the plot structure. He even owns up to a level of impotence - at the end of Chrons 1, He spells out to TC that He's not all-powerful and cannot save Foamfollower without breaking the Arch of Time.
The Creator's equally as clearly not omniscient, because if He was, there are still major problems with the plot structure - His choosing of TC would have been quite deliberate in the certain knowledge that TC was going to succeed. It's equally spelled out that His "choice" of TC was risk-laden and made in hope, not certainty.
So on that basis, the Creator is either more impotent and/or ignorant than He's letting on, or He's not telling the truth. Perhaps He is omniscient but not omnipotent and just needs the right someone to kick Foul's ass for Him. Perhaps he's just a minor league deity who's not packing much juice. Or perhaps He's amoral and it's all an experiment for Him - like a kid poking an anthill to see what'll happen. None of these alternatives are good news for a supposedly benevolent deity at the best of times... all are bound to get Him/Her/It a load of bad press.
The best I can come up with is this - maybe the Creator's only got qualified omnipotence and omniscience - and yes that's a blatant oxymoron, but bear with me. Maybe the Creator is omnipotent and omniscient except when it comes to all things under the Arch of Time... maybe, to paraphrase the playground paradox, when creating the Land and the Arch, He really did create a rock so heavy that He cannot not lift it.
Or far more likely, He doesn't exist at all...
The Creator's clearly not omnipotent, because if He was, this causes problems with the plot structure. He even owns up to a level of impotence - at the end of Chrons 1, He spells out to TC that He's not all-powerful and cannot save Foamfollower without breaking the Arch of Time.
The Creator's equally as clearly not omniscient, because if He was, there are still major problems with the plot structure - His choosing of TC would have been quite deliberate in the certain knowledge that TC was going to succeed. It's equally spelled out that His "choice" of TC was risk-laden and made in hope, not certainty.
So on that basis, the Creator is either more impotent and/or ignorant than He's letting on, or He's not telling the truth. Perhaps He is omniscient but not omnipotent and just needs the right someone to kick Foul's ass for Him. Perhaps he's just a minor league deity who's not packing much juice. Or perhaps He's amoral and it's all an experiment for Him - like a kid poking an anthill to see what'll happen. None of these alternatives are good news for a supposedly benevolent deity at the best of times... all are bound to get Him/Her/It a load of bad press.
The best I can come up with is this - maybe the Creator's only got qualified omnipotence and omniscience - and yes that's a blatant oxymoron, but bear with me. Maybe the Creator is omnipotent and omniscient except when it comes to all things under the Arch of Time... maybe, to paraphrase the playground paradox, when creating the Land and the Arch, He really did create a rock so heavy that He cannot not lift it.
Or far more likely, He doesn't exist at all...
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron"
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
- Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
What's important here is that the Creator is not God. He creates, and he seems to like to preserve what he creates. To do that, he can't reach into it himself, not without destroying that which made him want to preserve his creation to begin with.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
I've always...well, not always, but since some time shortly after I read 2nd. C's, lo those many years ago...thought, in brief synopsis form:
Omnipotent: he has that just like any other creator; complete control over what is made. But, once it IS made, if other beings relate to it, he has little to no control over what happens/what is done...except one last omnipotent act: it is his by right, destroy it.
Omniscience: I have a perhaps idiosyncratic interpretation of this word. "All knowing" doesn't mean "knows everything in its entirety." only "knows everything that is knowable. " So, this creator knows everything about everything that ever has been up to this exact moment in time...but NOT the future. IF the future is a knowable/known thing, nothing is living, nothing matters, it's just a machine waiting to break down, no matter how the parts that think they're living in it feel about it.
Omnipotent: he has that just like any other creator; complete control over what is made. But, once it IS made, if other beings relate to it, he has little to no control over what happens/what is done...except one last omnipotent act: it is his by right, destroy it.
Omniscience: I have a perhaps idiosyncratic interpretation of this word. "All knowing" doesn't mean "knows everything in its entirety." only "knows everything that is knowable. " So, this creator knows everything about everything that ever has been up to this exact moment in time...but NOT the future. IF the future is a knowable/known thing, nothing is living, nothing matters, it's just a machine waiting to break down, no matter how the parts that think they're living in it feel about it.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- Horrim Carabal
- <i>Haruchai</i>
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:13 am
- Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
- TheFallen
- Master of Innominate Surquedry
- Posts: 3155
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:16 pm
- Location: Guildford, UK
- Has thanked: 1 time
Yes I'm in entire agreement with you both here.Horrim Carabal wrote:You hit the nail on the head. The Creator is not equivalent to the Christian God.Orlion wrote:What's important here is that the Creator is not God.
I'd say that was qualified omnipotence and omniscience Maybe that's the fairest judgement of the ochre-robed mystery man... that is, presuming he's not just Horrim's bum.Vraith wrote: Omnipotence: he has that just like any other creator; complete control over what is made. But, once it IS made, if other beings relate to it, he has little to no control over what happens/what is done.
Omniscience: I have a perhaps idiosyncratic interpretation of this word. "All knowing" doesn't mean "knows everything in its entirety." only "knows everything that is knowable. " So, this creator knows everything about everything that ever has been up to this exact moment in time...but NOT the future.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron"
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
I occasionally post things here because I am invariably correct on all matters, a thing which is educational for others less fortunate.
- Horrim Carabal
- <i>Haruchai</i>
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:13 am
- Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Well, in our world TC is just a leprosy-ridden writer of mediocre fiction. Yet in the Land he carries perhaps the greatest power of them all.TheFallen wrote: I'd say that was qualified omnipotence and omniscience Maybe that's the fairest judgement of the ochre-robed mystery man... that is, presuming he's not just Horrim's bum.
Similarly, I see no problem with the Creator being an actual vagrant in our world.
- rdhopeca
- The Master
- Posts: 2798
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:13 pm
- Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
- Has thanked: 20 times
- Been thanked: 12 times
- Contact:
he certainly doesn't have time for a full time job in the real world.Horrim Carabal wrote:Well, in our world TC is just a leprosy-ridden writer of mediocre fiction. Yet in the Land he carries perhaps the greatest power of them all.TheFallen wrote: I'd say that was qualified omnipotence and omniscience Maybe that's the fairest judgement of the ochre-robed mystery man... that is, presuming he's not just Horrim's bum.
Similarly, I see no problem with the Creator being an actual vagrant in our world.
Rob
"Progress is made. Be warned."
"Progress is made. Be warned."
- Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
It is. But to be clear, I think that this is/would be the case for any possible god. He's as much god as any god could be...or maybe a truer way: any god more than this by its nature diminishes us to cogs even if we believe we're watchmakers.TheFallen wrote:I'd say that was qualified omnipotence and omniscienceVraith wrote: Omnipotence: he has that just like any other creator; complete control over what is made. But, once it IS made, if other beings relate to it, he has little to no control over what happens/what is done.
Omniscience: I have a perhaps idiosyncratic interpretation of this word. "All knowing" doesn't mean "knows everything in its entirety." only "knows everything that is knowable. " So, this creator knows everything about everything that ever has been up to this exact moment in time...but NOT the future.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- lurch
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2694
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:46 pm
- Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do
Its an interesting question only hampered by the parameter of the stated " Or ". The creator comes off as " that which Is". ,,a presented , here is the world, now deal with it. As already pointed out, not a perfect world. That the Creator is shabby, a " bum" etc..may be a fitting comment associated to this " world" he has presented to TC.
So perhaps the demagogue of the " presented world" by a demigod, the creator, is what the " mystery man" in ocher is about. Change in this " world" is what TC has been all about. The Creator thus comes across as the acknowledgment of the shabby existence TC has led to that point. The need,, the want,, the challenge to change it all,,is made clear and of course,,it all begins within ones self.
So perhaps the demagogue of the " presented world" by a demigod, the creator, is what the " mystery man" in ocher is about. Change in this " world" is what TC has been all about. The Creator thus comes across as the acknowledgment of the shabby existence TC has led to that point. The need,, the want,, the challenge to change it all,,is made clear and of course,,it all begins within ones self.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
pg4 TLD
- thewormoftheworld'send
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2156
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
- Location: Idaho
- Contact:
Re: The Creator... minor league godlet or hustler?
The Creator in the Chrons is not omnipotent in the sense that he cannot affect his Creation without breaking the Arch. However, that doesn't mean he can't do things, but the consequences are unavoidable. But isn't he omnipotent for setting those rules himself? The very capability suggests omnipotence. He can lift the rock, but by his own rules, it breaks in the process. It is not the Creator who is lacking, but the Creation.TheFallen wrote:I've been thinking about the whole free will thing again, but this time with reference to the Creator, rather than TC. I'm not sure logic can or even should be applied here, but let's give it a try...
The Creator's clearly not omnipotent, because if He was, this causes problems with the plot structure. He even owns up to a level of impotence - at the end of Chrons 1, He spells out to TC that He's not all-powerful and cannot save Foamfollower without breaking the Arch of Time.
The Creator's equally as clearly not omniscient, because if He was, there are still major problems with the plot structure - His choosing of TC would have been quite deliberate in the certain knowledge that TC was going to succeed. It's equally spelled out that His "choice" of TC was risk-laden and made in hope, not certainty.
So on that basis, the Creator is either more impotent and/or ignorant than He's letting on, or He's not telling the truth. Perhaps He is omniscient but not omnipotent and just needs the right someone to kick Foul's ass for Him. Perhaps he's just a minor league deity who's not packing much juice. Or perhaps He's amoral and it's all an experiment for Him - like a kid poking an anthill to see what'll happen. None of these alternatives are good news for a supposedly benevolent deity at the best of times... all are bound to get Him/Her/It a load of bad press.
The best I can come up with is this - maybe the Creator's only got qualified omnipotence and omniscience - and yes that's a blatant oxymoron, but bear with me. Maybe the Creator is omnipotent and omniscient except when it comes to all things under the Arch of Time... maybe, to paraphrase the playground paradox, when creating the Land and the Arch, He really did create a rock so heavy that He cannot not lift it.
Or far more likely, He doesn't exist at all...
edit- I'm just saying, by analogy, that the Christian God (I'm not saying they're the same) is not omnipotent in the sense that He cannot sin. Nevertheless, He is considered omnipotent.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH
Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
- Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 2943
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 12:45 pm
- Location: Deep in psychotic, warped and weird thoughts
-
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:31 am
The Creator is a God, but not an all powerful all seeing, all powerful deity like the Christian God. More like the limited gods of ancient legend. It also strikes me that he sucks at worldbuilding, because he made laws that could be broken(and stay broken once broken) and created a world that required an arch of time to keep it in existence. Whereas the God of Christian legend places all of existence within time, including himself, and thus allows himself free action should he choose it.
- High Lord Tolkien
- Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH
- Posts: 7383
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: Cape Cod, Mass
- Been thanked: 3 times
- Contact:
This Creator is a lot more "'human" than people realize. I think of him more along the lines of a Zeus-type character since we learned that he's involved in a pretty intense love triangle.
That's why I love SRD's use of the word Creator, it allows for a fantastically powerful being but none of the omnipotence and all-powerful contradictions that can arise.
That's why I love SRD's use of the word Creator, it allows for a fantastically powerful being but none of the omnipotence and all-powerful contradictions that can arise.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
- Horrim Carabal
- <i>Haruchai</i>
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:13 am
- Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Has anyone considered the possibility the the Creator is from our world as well? After all, TC is a writer who discovered he is the "reincarnation" of the Land's greatest hero. Maybe the Creator is an ordinary man in our world who discovered he could create worlds in the other reality. And his attempt was the world of the Land...
- wayfriend
- .
- Posts: 20957
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 4 times
I think this quote explains the Creator quite well.
In [u]Against All Things Ending[/u] was wrote:Hellfire, he muttered in silence. No wonder only people like Roger and creatures like the croyel wanted to be gods. The sheer impotence of that state would appall a chunk of basalt—if the basalt happened to care about anything except itself. Absolute power was as bad as powerlessness for anybody who valued someone else’s peace or happiness or even survival. The Creator could only make or destroy worlds: he could not rule them, nurture them, assist them. He was simply too strong to express himself within the constraints of Time.
.