Running (and injuries from running!)

[Ananda]

I'm not sure this is the proper place to make this thread, but i saw a lot of people were into running and have had various injuries from it. I'm one of those people. I'm curious what people have done after recurring running injuries to get back to it?

For me, I used to run about 4 or 5 times a week about 3,5 to 4 km each time and also including a gym visit. But, I ruptured or tore (they haven't quite figured it out) some ligament connecting the hamstring muscles to the hipbone after over exerting on a hamstring bench exercise thingie (low weight- I didn't try to build muscle, but tone it) and then deciding to run a 5k run. Everytime I've tried to slowly get back into it, I've re-injured it t the point where I doubt I'll ever be able to go running again (cry!). It even got so bad at one point in re-injuring it that I could barely walk for a couple of weeks. (yes, I've gone to the doctor, had X-rays, mri, injury therapy, etc)

So, I'm interested to hear if other people have had running injuries, what they've done and how they got back to it.

[sgt.null]

no injuries, but my ankle fusion will make it impossible for me to run. not that i did anyway.

[Vraith]

Ligament [and tendon, except tendon even more so] injuries are really unpredictable and idiosyncratic. I'm basically a "healer" in these things...meaning I recover and it doesn't matter eventually, but eventually is the key word. I've injured [ligament/tendon-wise] once, knee, shoulders, hip, twice most of my fingers, god knows how often ankles, wrists, and some of my other fingers.

If it really is the connection from hamstring, chances are miniscule that running had anything at all to do with cause [unless you were jogging through the jungle and had to dodge a leopard pounce from the right side, then overworked your right hip on the machine...or vice versa]
Though it may aggravate/re-injure it, cuz those connections are complicated and interlaced.

Recommend: don't run [or use run-simulating machines] at all for at least six months. bicycle a lot, learn to swim for real and do a lot of breast stroke and butterfly. It's easy to cheat on breast stroke, don't cheat...interrupt it with faster things to pump you up if you need to. During both breast and fly [fly is exhausting...I'm sorry...] focus on your legs. Fly properly done works the legs hard vertically fronts and backs, breast does rotations, inners, outers, supporting, flex, tendons and ligaments.

Also recommend [this may sound odd, but it is physiologically on target as far as peeps know]...there are a million "stretches" involving hams and related...start to do them...but AS SOON AS is feels like ANYTHING is actually "stretching" do NOT go any further, do NOT push beyond even a little, not "bouncing" or "easing" or "relaxing into" or "breathing into" or any of that keyword bullshit. Instead...as soon as you feel the SLIGHTEST tension, back AWAY a little bit. Then tense the ham muscle as if pulling your heel to that place [I wish I could show you, words won't be clear].
for example, if doing what is generally called "hurdler stretches," use your ham as if trying to drive your heel into the floor or pull it up to your butt. Hold the ham tension as long as you can, repeat it 10 times [do NOT try to "stretch further" each time, stay exactly where it "isn't quite a stretch."
For other purposes, other things would be done as you progress from this, but to help your injury that's irrelevant.
Work back into running slowly.
Don't ever, for any reason, use weight machines for hams unless your profession and wealth depend on it.

EDITED TO ADD: butterfly in particular, but all properly done swimming will do great things for your abs.
ALSO to ADD cuz it's a pet peeve: not you particularly, but in general for runners: learn how to run for fucks sake...there IS good and bad technique, and most running injury/pain is cuz you are NOT DOING IT RIGHT. When you read articles that say "don't run, it causes 500lbs of nasty knee destroying damage per impact" it is a combination of bio-physics badly applied by amateurs and feet badly applied to ground by amateur runners.

[Ananda]

Thanks for the tips, Vraith. I think the swimming will be out since they moved the swimhall and I don't drive.

What is the correct way to run? I always ran on a treadmill (boring, I know, but no snow on the treadmill!). I was a bit dumb this week. I went for a long walk in boots with heels and now the muscles around that injury are really sore. bleh. I am thinking that I will see a different injury therapist. I got a referral to a new one.

[SoulBiter]

The only injury from running that I have had to deal with is ITBS. (Iliotibial Band Syndrome). Its the band that runs from your hip to you knee. Where it attaches to my knee was giving me enough problems so that I couldnt run for a while. When I tried it was like someone driving and icepick into the side of my knee.

First I tried not running and then easing back into it... nah....that didnt get me anywhere. Eventually I went to a Physical therapist. They put me through a series of tests and figured out how to get me back on my feet. What they figured out was that my back was giving me issues and causing me to favor my left leg when I ran. (But not enough so I would notice it) which was affecting my stride which caused me to inflame the ITB at my knee. So I had to work on two things. Strengthening my core muscles. Stretching my ITB and hamstrings before and after running. So I learned some new exercises to do which help with the core and after a couple of months I was back to running.

But during that, I also learned the value of 'good' running shoes and making sure you change them out every 300 to 400 miles. If you dont, the wear on the bottoms is never even and will cause you to pronate your foot as you run and put pressure on your knees and ankles which will give you long term issues. So now I spend the big bucks for running shoes and change them out. My old running shoes which look great for the most part, become my every day shoes and I only use the new ones for running.

[jelerak]

From my own personal experience, I have had no issues besides the inital soreness. I started running last August and currently am doing 4 miles a day on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I run outside on grass behind my house. Shin splints have not been an issue, but I once tried to do my run on pavement and I though my shins were going to split. I started out where I coul dnot even run a mile continuously, so I am pretty happy to have gotten where I am. my best 1 mile time is about 8:30, and my best 4 mile time is right at 39 minutes. Not great, but I am not looking for world class speed. I have managed to drop 40 pounds since I started last August. I started at 217 and niw fluctuate between 175 and 180.

...and if I miss one of my runs, I feel a sense of guilt and go out there the next time and usually get some of my best times in.

Anyway, I just thought that I would put my 2 cents in.

Oh, and I am 45 years old and this is the first time in my likfe that I ever started to run or do anything of this nature.

[Ananda]

That's awesome, Jelerak

[Zarathustra]

Don't ever, for any reason, use weight machines for hams unless your profession and wealth depend on it.

I assume this is advice for everyone, and not merely someone who has damaged the hamstring? I've used weights to work mine, and never seemed to have a problem ... but now that you mention it, I wonder if it contributed to my injury last year, even though that was in my calf. I can feel my calf muscles working hard--but in a "different" way--when I do my hamstring weight exercises. I lay on my stomach on my bench, and use the attachment on the end to "curl" the weight up and toward my glutes. Is this the type of exercise you warn against doing?

Also, can you describe the "proper" run technique?

Great job Jerelak. My best 1 mile last year was 6 minutes (in a 2 mile run, 6:44 in a 3 mile). My best 4 mile was 30:50.

Then I injured myself last year pretty bad, and I'm just now slowly working back up to regular runs. I have only done about 10 runs so far, gradually decreasing my interval between runs from 7 days, 6 day, etc .... now and I'm down to a 3 day interval. I think I'll hold here for a while, because I'm adding some morning walks into the mix on my off-days. I feel very slow at 23 minutes for 2.5 miles, but I dare not push it. No pain so far. A little sore, but in that healthy "building muscle" kind of way.

[Vraith]

Don't ever, for any reason, use weight machines for hams unless your profession and wealth depend on it.

I assume this is advice for everyone, and not merely someone who has damaged the hamstring? I've used weights to work mine, and never seemed to have a problem ... but now that you mention it, I wonder if it contributed to my injury last year, even though that was in my calf. I can feel my calf muscles working hard--but in a "different" way--when I do my hamstring weight exercises. I lay on my stomach on my bench, and use the attachment on the end to "curl" the weight up and toward my glutes. Is this the type of exercise you warn against doing?

Also, can you describe the "proper" run technique?

Great job Jerelak. My best 1 mile last year was 6 minutes (in a 2 mile run, 6:44 in a 3 mile). My best 4 mile was 30:50.

Then I injured myself last year pretty bad, and I'm just now slowly working back up to regular runs. I have only done about 10 runs so far, gradually decreasing my interval between runs from 7 days, 6 day, etc .... now and I'm down to a 3 day interval. I think I'll hold here for a while, because I'm adding some morning walks into the mix on my off-days. I feel very slow at 23 minutes for 2.5 miles, but I dare not push it. No pain so far. A little sore, but in that healthy "building muscle" kind of way.

This might be long.
Yea, that ham curl is what I'm talking about.
The problem with machines, in general, is actually fed by what peeps see as advantages...they tend to isolate muscles in the extreme. Which makes you look more buff and gives a certain specific kind of strength. But your muscles are not meant to work that way. This is particularly bad for hams cuz the machine eliminates the necessary stabilizing/cooperation strength at the complicated connections at both ends...knees and hips/butt/pelvis area and by extension connecting to calves and lower back...AND there's no good machine/routine to "get at" all the connections...so the isolation remains isolated, your ham becomes too powerful for its role in the system [like connecting your monster Harley motor to the wheel with a kids bike chain, or connecting an anchor chain to the anchor with a piece of twine] Pro athletes and such compensate for this by using free weights and very complex routines...but none of them completely cover it all in the case of hams.
Obviously, not everyone will end up with a problem/injury from this, especially if they do lots of other full-body things...but it creates an unnecessary risk for almost no useful gain.

I'm not sure words will work well for running technique...but I'll try.
First, a mental thing that connects to the physical and shoes for lots of people...there's a common image/feel/mental projection that your feet land in front of you to move. [heh...and that your hams pull you forward]. Both of those are nearly false...and if you think about reaching out/forward with your legs/feet and pulling, you will create a damaging stride.
And people think they land on the heel and roll forward. That is slightly true ...but just for walking. Your foot lands mostly underneath you, just the slightest bit in front of your hips.
The faster you move, the less out in front it lands, and the closer to the front of the foot you should strike the ground [at a full sprint, your heel barely touches the ground at all...and that's for stability first, and then leverage when you PUSH forward]
I'm not a fan of slow jogs, they cause the most impact to joints. Much better to run at a moderate speed then switch to a walk when you get tired than to slow jog.
But at any speed above a walk, don't land on the heel. slower/moderate speeds you should be landing basically on the middle of the foot, where your arch is. IF you land on your heel, you are impacting harder, driving that impact into the knee [which is by definition too straight at that point, cuz if it weren't you wouldn't be able to land on the heel at all] and actually "stopping" your forward movement.
Don't buy shoes with too much of a wedge-shape...it forces you towards heel landings...and also tends to mess with your ankles. [Don't buy those silly "sketchers" or "butt-working" shoes with a rounded sole, either]
If you can keep your ankles loose/easy [which doesn't mean "floppy"] usually your foot will land correctly by itself...this will also help prevent "shin splints."
Limit up/down movements of your body [hard to do at a slow jog, which is also part of why faster or walking is better].
Your knees shouldn't straighten all the way [at an all out sprint they might for an instant...but not while in contact/impacting the ground]
Don't "roll" or "rotate" or "twist" your upper body/shoulders. [you might do this a little and not even notice...often you can self-diagnose by your hands/arms...if they cross your center, you're probably rotating.]
Your entire leg should come through the center of your body...neither knee nor foot should flip/rotate/turn in or outside your centerline. [you can usually tell if you do this, or if you're doing heel strikes by looking at your shoes once you've got a couple hundred miles on them...the tread should not be extremely worn on one edge compared to the others, the cushion area should not be more compressed in the heel or either "corner" of the heel than other places. [the compression is less obvious in modern shoes than it used to be, so it might not be easy to spot].
I hope that's useful.

[Zarathustra]

Great info! So how slow is too slow? Can you put a number to that for an average height male?

[Vraith]

Great info! So how slow is too slow? Can you put a number to that for an average height male?

Roughly, anything slower than 10 minute miles it's almost as effective a workout and far less joint-smacking to walk.

And to be clear...it isn't short periods/distances of running too slow that hurt, [like when you're first getting into [or back into]] shape, it's when your basic workout speed is habitually/constantly too slow over months and years that it hurts.

[jelerak]

I have also found that the few times that I have ran on a treadmill (which is only on the occasional business trip) that my best times are far better than my average times running in the field behind my house. I can hit 8 minute miles on a treadmill regularly, but on my own in the back I have to seriously push myself to hit that 8:30 mile. I don't count that 8 minute mile as my best time. I can see why I can hit it, though. On the treadmill my pace is set and I cannot deviate from how I set it...I then I have to go at that pace. When I run in the back, I constantly have to keep pushing myself to keep that pace. I notice that I drop off and then have to get myself back up to speed if I lose focus on my pace. Of course, the music that I am listening to also causes my pace to vary. I hope to get to where I can hit that 8 minute pace as my base eventually without the regimented pace of a treadmill.

[Zarathustra]

Jelerak, a field sounds like a great place to run, but if you have a park where there are other runners on a track, their presence can push you to keep up your pace. You don't even have to see them constantly. For a person running in the opposite direction on a circular track, if you keep advancing the spot where you saw him/her on the previous lap, you're going faster than they are, and vice versa. Keeping track of this can push you to go faster. And whenever I pass someone going the same direction, I feel pressured to keep up the pace so that they don't end up passing me (kind of the same pressure you feel on the highway--maybe that's just me ).

Or you can get a good runner's pedometer that tracks your speed/distance/time and heartrate.

[Ananda]

We have a forrest area across the river (just a few minutes away) that I have run sometimes. It is dirt paths winding through a forrest between downtown and the ocean. It is very nice, but the uneven ground can be a bit much when it rains and there is snow or it is too cold (which is half the year). So, I got used to running on a treadmill. It was convenient since I wanted to use some other stuff at the gym or take a class there anyway. It was this forrest path that I was walking though (in heeled boots no less) that got me all sore the other day. I agree that, when I did run there, keeping a pace was more difficult than on the treadmill by far. Especially since it is not perfectly flat and there are minor rises here and there.

Vraith, the exercise you talked against and the one Zaha described is exactly the one where I originally injured myself. The running on top of it just made it a lot worse.

[SoulBiter]

Running on a treadmill is also faster because you have nice even ground. When running on anything other than a track, you are making thousands of adjustments due to uneven ground, hills, etc etc. No matter how you set that treadmill up, its not going to give you the same workout.

On the slower running, keep age in mind. I agree that you want to run at a nice pace to save your knees and ankles, but at some point as you age, its going to get harder and harder to hit the same pace and its still better to keep moving (even at the slower pace) than to stop moving and lose mobility.

[Vraith]

Running on a treadmill is also faster because you have nice even ground. When running on anything other than a track, you are making thousands of adjustments due to uneven ground, hills, etc etc. No matter how you set that treadmill up, its not going to give you the same workout.

On the slower running, keep age in mind. I agree that you want to run at a nice pace to save your knees and ankles, but at some point as you age, its going to get harder and harder to hit the same pace and its still better to keep moving (even at the slower pace) than to stop moving and lose mobility.

Yea, on the treadmill...and that's also part of it's shortcoming, cuz those adjustments are necessary for real body health/integrity/strength. [even those fancy ones with video that tilt up when the path is hill]...I also suspect the "mental" aspect of all this exercise is far less effective/prevalent on mills/stationary bikes and such...that may be just my prejudice/attitude...but I intuit it is so and someone should study it.

On the age thing: that is inherent in what I was saying...if you are too old to keep the pace, your joints are ALSO older...the impact is more damaging. It is even MORE important to switch to walking/biking/swimming [or due intervals of faster pace with walking mixed in] rather than running too slow. Indirectly this applies to weight: if you're more than 25 pounds overweight it is almost 100% guarantee you will have too straight legs and heel impacts...your strength/stride/habits make it damn near certain. This is brutal for everything from your arches all the way up your spine, even causing back injuries, stiff necks and nasty headaches for some...and they can easily become permanent/crippling/chronic. Technique is CRITICAL. Better yet, do something else till you're not so heavy.

Just for fun, I should mention I freaking HATE running. [never lasted more than 5 mins on a treadmill...they make running even more hateful.] I only started cuz in HS I needed sports to keep my cardio endurance high for swimming season. And for swimming you reach a point where you HAVE to work technique or suck. Which made me think running might also have technique.

Oh, and BTW, when I said "roughly" on the pace, i really meant "roughly." Cuz your inseam matters...more than you might think. Mine is about average at an average height. But the "normal" range is approx. +/- 10% of that...so if I'm average [male, white, U.S.] height, but short-legged, that pace tends to 11 min miles...if I'm long-legged, it's heads to 9 min miles.
The better measure is more subjective, you need a feel for your absolute maximum/peak walking speed over very short distance...your minimum run speed should be a little faster than max walking speed.

[jelerak]

I agree, running on a track or around other runners would probably push me to a faster pace, but there is no replicating waking up, getting myself dressed and opening up my back fence and being able to run without having to actually get up and go anywhere.

[danlo]

I love running when I don't have to think about it-like basketball and tennis. I dislike prolonged running and running on hard surfaces, roads and sidewalks give me headaches.