Jeremiah POV Chapters

[wayfriend]

Now that Jeremiah is "back", Donaldson will have a chance to write chapters from Jeremiah's point of view.

I wonder if he will.

This is a decisive issue as I see it. Because up until now, Jeremiah's point of view has never been presented to us. Which means that Donaldson has never answered a basic question: Is Jeremiah a primary character, like Thomas and Linden? Or is he an auxilliary character, like Roger and Liand?

If he is a primary character, then he has come to the Land in order to resolve his internal problems. The character of the Land and the people in it are in some ways in tune with working those internal problems out. The Chronicles will end with Jeremiah achieving a breakthrough which provides the answer to his problems, enabling him to live the rest of his life.

It is valid to wonder what kind of internal problems Jeremiah would come to the Land to resolve. After all, he's been hiding in the graveyard of his own mind, manipulated or at least threatened by Foul and a croyel for all his life. Sure, he has to solve THAT problem. But that's a RESCUE problem. It's not a life-changing, need-a-new-way-to-see-the-world kind of a problem.

If Donaldson is consistent here, Jeremiah's internal problems would center on the ironic mode, and involve being futile, and the escape from that futility. I am not sure that being imprisoned in the graveyard of ones own mind is a form of ironic mode. After all, this is not a self-chosen or at least subconsciously accepted form of futility. This is being literally imprisoned, rather than imprisoned by ones conceptions or outlook.

Or is it? Is there more to Jeremiah's just-broken silence than meets the eye? We can finally find out.

If Jeremiah has internal problems to be resolved by saving the Land, like Linden and Covenant have had, then we don't have a long time in which to learn about them. A single book remains. A single book to explore his internal problems, show how the Land externalizes these problems, and how by fighting for the Land he is fighting for himself. It seems like, even in the best case, Jeremiah is being given relatively short shrift.

But what is the alternative? If Jeremiah is not a primary character, then the onus for saving the Land remains squarely on Linden's and Covenant's shoulders. It's still all about them. Jeremiah is a secondary character.

And if Jeremiah is a secondary character, then his contributions to saving the Land (in whatever form that takes) will be secondary. He's not the one that has to overcome internal conflicts in order to overcome external ones. He's not the one who needs to learn the secret of living that sets him free. He's just helping out. He's as important as Vain or Findail, critical to the development of the plot but not critical to the story of epic vision that is being told.

Perhaps the clues that Jeremiah might still be Foul's boy should guide us here. If this is to remain a mystery for long, then Donaldson can't afford to let us peak at the answer. Jeremiah's point of view would give the answer away. This argues then that Jeremiah will remain opaque, and that his point of view won't be written.

However, we also know that this Chronicles is about "sons".

So no, way back in the early 80s I didn't foresee the role that parenthood would play in "The Last Chronicles". (I wasn't a parent myself in those days.) As soon as I started writing on TROTE, however, I realized that something was missing from my conception of the story. Something vital. Something without which I wouldn't be able to go where I intended to go. And after some weeks of mental floundering, my subconscious finally gave me Jeremiah. Who was implied by Roger, and who in turn implied Anele.

(12/20/2007)

So, while Jeremiah's internal struggles may not play out as a primary character, they may play out as part of what Linden, and even Covenant, go through to resolve their own. The Parent Predicament may be central to the final resolution: The parent simply can't know everything there is to know about the consequences of his/her actions. Will Jeremiah be good? or evil? But, more importantly, how will this effect Linden? And Covenant, who has his own son to deal with?

All of this doesn't answer the simple question posed in the topic, of course. It merely explains why anticipating the answer is so darned complicated.

For myself, I think that the parent angle on Jeremiah, as well as on Roger, will be central to the final resolution. Which means that Jeremiah is a secondary character who has great meaning to the primary characters, but who is not a primary character himself. I think that Jeremiah's point of view will remain hidden in order to keep his allegiance ambiguous.

But it's an arguable point.

One thing that you have to admit is: this is the last Chronicles. Anything can happen. ("Everything must go.") Because we're not saving anything for the future - not only are there no more Chronicles, but all the main characters will quite likely end up dead anway. With conditions such as this, who can predict anything?

[DrPaul]

Very thoughtful and interesting.

My own feeling ever since ROTE has been that Jeremiah would be a primary character. It's certainly true that the Linden-Jeremiah bond is one of the most central elements of the Last Chronicles, and after discovering SWMNBN in AATE I would not be surprised if we discover a parallel between the Jeremiah-Linden bond and the She-Creator relationship.

By rights I should take the time to more fully explain my thinking about these points. I'll try to in a subsequent post.

[Vraith]

in AATE I would not be surprised if we discover a parallel between the Jeremiah-Linden bond and the She-Creator relationship.

By rights I should take the time to more fully explain my thinking about these points. I'll try to in a subsequent post.

I wish you would...lots of peeps have proposed various relationship sets, but I don't think anyone else has gone that way...

But caused me to leap some interesting places...cuz everything is different if SHE/Creator is Parent/child/incestuous instead of equals and lovers/former lovers/lovers ripped apart/betrayed.

[Ananda]

Jeremiah chapters is what I dread. I havent liked him at all in the story. Not in Lindens strange relation to him or his tv serial comedy show 'kid' dialogue while he was croyel candy. I really hope we are not subject to him so much, but I fear we will be.

[DrPaul]

Jeremiah chapters is what I dread. I havent liked him at all in the story. Not in Lindens strange relation to him or his tv serial comedy show 'kid' dialogue while he was croyel candy. I really hope we are not subject to him so much, but I fear we will be.

But the strange relationship was as strange as it was largely because of his catatonic state, and the "kid" dialogue was almost certainly the croyel playing mind games with Linden. He'll be quite a different character now that he's got his own mind back.

[Iolanthe]

How much of what Jeremiah said whilst under the control of the Croyel was true? Has he really had a lot of experience in the land? He claimed to have talked to the Vizard, and to have known Covenant. He therefore has a background in the Land and may know things that Linden doesn't. His few words to Linden at the end of AATE don't give a clue as to his true past in the Land. His talent is obvious of course.

[Ananda]

The thing about his dialogue is that the croyel is not from our universe, so it cannot explain why he talked like someone writing a kid character in a tv show if it was the croyels own impression of a kid. The strangeness for their relationship is how I saw Lindens attitude regarding him. He seemed like a surrogate for Love for her. I found her whole at a distance relation to him odd and it didn't feel true for me unless it was meant to imply a dysfunctional relation on her part.

[SleeplessOne]

If Jeremiah has internal problems to be resolved by saving the Land, like Linden and Covenant have had, then we don't have a long time in which to learn about them. A single book remains. A single book to explore his internal problems, show how the Land externalizes these problems, and how by fighting for the Land he is fighting for himself. It seems like, even in the best case, Jeremiah is being given relatively short shrift.

SRD presented, and went on to resolve, the 'internal problems' of Hile Troy in the space of one book.

And it could be argued that Jeremiah has already faced his internal problems and triumphed.

In the Land as in 'the Real World', Jeremiah had been restricted in his ability to fully express himself, living in a state of near-catatonia.

He had chosen to put himself out of evil's reach by sinking into a deep autistic state in our world as a reaction to Foul's horrendous imposed compulsion which cost the boy half of his hand, and also by metaphorically burying his soul to escape Foul in the Land.

But of course he was able to free himself of his stasis at the end of AATE with the aid of the Ranyhyn, Anele, Liand and Linden.

As with Covenant and Linden in previous summonings, the Land, whilst a danger to the very essence of his soul, ultimately helped him to overcome his internal struggles - however, being dead in the real world, any inner strength and resolve that Jeremiah has gained from his experiences in the Land will only benefit the Land.

[Zarathustra]

From a purely narrative or structural perspective, it would be exceedingly bizarre for a "character" (we can hardly call him that), who has spent 75% of the LC as an unresponsive human plot device, to go from this utter absence of character to a full-fledged POV character. Given that this is the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant--a concept which has already been precariously weakened by the presence of Linden as a POV character--adding yet another POV at this late point in the game, one who has only a tenuous connection to the main character himself, would be a huge narrative mistake. Linden only makes sense as a POV character in terms of her connection to Thomas Covenant, and the fact that they traveled to the Land together, and thus had a "shared dream" or an inter-subjective experience with the universal truths of What It Means to Be Human. This connection between them was built up over several books, and started in the real world. Not only does Jeremiah have no connection with Covenant outside his brief, inactive bonfire meeting, but Jeremiah hardly has any connection with Linden, given his unresponsive state while he lived with her. So the reasoning behind including Linden as a POV, the narrative justification, is entirely lacking with Jeremiah. There is simply no more reason to consider him as a POV character than Roger, Joan, or Sheriff Litton at this point.

Making Jeremiah a POV character would be almost as bad as the "all this was a dream" ending with Covenant waking up in a hospital.

[wayfriend]

Jeremiah chapters is what I dread. I havent liked him at all in the story. Not in Lindens strange relation to him or his tv serial comedy show 'kid' dialogue while he was croyel candy. I really hope we are not subject to him so much, but I fear we will be.

I like the "TV serial comedy show 'kid' dialog" description. It's very apt.

Did anyone else think that Jeremiah's first words when he freed himself at the end were still TV show serial comedy kid dialog?

[Ananda]

One thing I noticed in the tc books is that the people in our universe has rather awkward lines. It is as though srd cannot write contemporary slang or casual language usage very well. He is good at the flowery speeches, though.

[Vraith]

Making Jeremiah a POV character would be almost as bad as the "all this was a dream" ending with Covenant waking up in a hospital.

Because some time has passed since there was unqualified agreement between us, I note here my unqualified agreement with the sentiment.

And that's a point, Ananda...though I didn't notice it so much in the one "Man Who..." book I've read so far.

[OhYeah]

I hope that SD doesn't have any POV chapters, "'cause Jeremiah, we hardly know ya'". But, as I read the Last Chronicles for the 2nd time, and see its' evolution from TROTE to AATE, I am seeing the 'reach out' to teen readers, perhaps. Maybe, as a Dad of 3 teens, I am over-reaching, but SD may be trying to 'bridge a gap' to a teen audience with Jeremiah. He may just include some Jeremiah-POV chapters in TLD.

Having said that, I also hope that Jer is a 'good guy', and not some instrument of Lord Foul.

[Orlion]

Having said that, I also hope that Jer is a 'good guy', and not some instrument of Lord Foul.

For this reason, I do not think there will be any POV chapters from Jeremiah (at least, not till the very end, and very brief). Any suspense about the motivations of Jeremiah, particularly once he enacts what will be viewed (at least initially) a traitorous action against Linden and Covenant would be compromised or cheapened otherwise. Afterall, does not one voluntarily take on a croyel? Was Foul's prophecy about Jeremiah ultimately betraying Linden fulfilled in Fatal Revenant, or did he have something else in mind? What will be the ultimate fate of all these characters since each and every one of them is dead in the real world and the Land is going to be destroyed?

[wayfriend]

Any suspense about the motivations of Jeremiah, particularly once he enacts what will be viewed (at least initially) a traitorous action against Linden and Covenant would be compromised or cheapened otherwise.

That's my thinking as well. However, I have to point out that SRD has been very successful at maintaining such suspense with Covenant and Linden (and other characters in other stories) while still sharing their POV with the reader. Of course, this rather depends on the fact that the characters themselves don't know which way they will go. It is entirely possible (and I daresay probable) for SRD to present Jeremiah as a conflicted character who struggles between serving Foul and being true to his mother. That, after all, would be a story worth telling. But if Jeremiah is just a pure treacher in his heart, like Roger, then of course that has to be kept a secret from the reader.

I also think that Donaldson's notions of parenthood come into play here.

With the best will in the world, no parent can avoid causing pain and even damage to the child. Nor can the parent see inside the child well enough to recognize *all* the pain and damage that arrives from other sources. The parent may well identify much of that pain and damage, and respond to it lovingly. The parent may do everything in his/her power to confront the consequences of his/her actions. But deep inside, the child remains invisible to the parent (as we all are to each other). The parent simply can't know everything there is to know about the consequences of his/her actions--and is pretty much fighting blind when it comes to the consequences for the child of other people's actions. The result? The best parents in the world raise children who have been damaged, and who are intimately familiar with pain. At a certain point, the parent has no choice except to just let the child grow up (i.e. cope with the child's own pain/damage)--if the child can.

(09/07/2007)

So, if this "Parent Predicament" is a guide to us, then the opacity of a child's inner struggles is an essential part of being a parent. So, to tell Linden's story fully, he may very will choose to leave Jeremiah's POV a mystery. (Or he may share it! To contrast the effect Linden has to the effect she thinks she has.)

However, there is always the notion that Jeremiah is intended to be a third protagonist of equal importance to Covenant and Linden. That he was chosen by the Creator; that the Land is significant to him.

The notion that he is the one that will save the Earth in the end is significant. Surely we must have THAT person's POV! What good is a story about people watching someone else save the world?

(And yet, as I write this, I have to admit that relying on someone else to save the world is a logical progression from the first through the Second to the Last Chronicles.)

So, does Donaldson serve the higher aim (if it exists) of making Jeremiah a true inheritor of Thomas and Linden? Or does preserving Jeremiah's mystery imply that Donaldson can't serve such an aim at all?