Translating ur-viles (art, WIP2)

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deer of the dawn
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Post by deer of the dawn »

It's the white showing over the top of the iris, which makes a really intense, almost suggestive gaze... but maybe that's what you're going for. LOVE the First!!!! You nailed her. In the figurative, artistic sense. :P

Here is something of what I picture the ur-viles to look like. I didn't quite get it right, but I tried. Almost prehensile mouths, faces dominated by the nostrils, the mouth almost hidden at the end of the snout. And I love the way you do the ears, but I pictured them as much larger also. And little tufts and whiskers here and there (which I added at the end of the snout but should be on the ear tips too). :) One of the challenges in the Chrons is getting a good picture of some really strange creatures, so I respect others' vision of them as well.
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Frostheart Grueburn
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Could a mod perhaps move this thread to the Gallery?

Don't commonly post personal reffs like this online, but relevant in this case. Örxx is now traversing through his 3rd phase of personal evolution. I'm rather liking the long-skulled variant; creepy enough to compensate for the lack of undead zombie teeth. :lol:


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Could anyone perhaps supply a quote about ur-vile clothing? Tried to skim through a few passages, but couldn't discover anything. Have a distinct recollection about ragged loincloths, for some reason.

Thanks guys for the help! :D Bed for me again.
Last edited by Frostheart Grueburn on Thu May 09, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Khazduk
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Post by Khazduk »

Hmm, looking at it from his own perspective undead zombie teeth would probably help Örxx with his Swedish pronunciation, and possibly with expressing his Urd, too. :)
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Post by wayfriend »

FH, that's truly awesome. Incredible.

As for ur-vile-wear, I can't find any reference to their even having any, nor do I recall such a reference. Is it possible that they don't? They are genderless, for one thing. And they seem to stow their belongings away inside their bodies somehow.

But I see no problem with artistic license giving them clothing. I don't think Donaldson specifically says they are naked, either. But these guys are smart guys who have lore and skill and craft - they're not going to dress in a rag. Maybe black leather ...
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Post by Krazy Kat »

wayfriend wrote:Maybe black leather ...

The ur-viles are bat-like, so leathery hides seems plausible. There also like dogs that can stand upright. The drawings of the anatomy are really good...how are dogs hipbones shaped to accomodate bipedal movement?
Maybe there skins are really slick with grease like if you never washed your hair for a summer and a half.

Or they may just be shadows from nightmare...
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Thanks everyone!

Hmm, may have discovered something about Demondim fashions, which makes it a glaring absence of haute couture.
WGW wrote:Covenant realized that Hamako was not dressed for winter. Only the worn swath of leather around his hips made him less naked than the Waynhim.
So either they are clad in a pouch only, or they run around with their hypothetical--couldn't find anything about genderlessness--wossnames exposed, the lack of whereof would of course devastate Ananda. As the following step, need to redraw the critters in the second WIP to match the requirements of the last evo stage, but I seriously may end up giving them more festive loincloths and some odd bits of jewelry.
Deer wrote:It's the white showing over the top of the iris, which makes a really intense, almost suggestive gaze... but maybe that's what you're going for.
Auugh A's pr0n has become sentient goo and is seeping out of the Mallory's... 8O :lol: Tried to give their expressions, the eyes included, almost a childlike sparkle of enthusiasm (which they experienced after regaining their gift of tongues), not a yearning for ur-vile fun... Still don't see them as 'suggestive' myself, but probably will play with the visages a tad more nonetheless... :lol:

I believe SRD depicted the Demondim fellers as entirely hairless, though, so they might lack the tufts and whiskers.
Khazduk wrote:Hmm, looking at it from his own perspective undead zombie teeth would probably help Örxx with his Swedish pronunciation, and possibly with expressing his Urd, too.
:haha: :lol:
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Post by wayfriend »

That Hamako quote was a good find!
Frostheart wrote:So either they are clad in a pouch only, or they run around with their hypothetical--couldn't find anything about genderlessness--wossnames exposed
Well, Demondim-spawn are spawned/made, not born. That's stated. It would be plausible to presume no babies, no baby-making, and no baby-making apparatus. That's never stated, of course. But, like the eyes, it's possible to make artistic choices that convey by implication a whole lot about their unusual nature.
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

wayfriend wrote:That Hamako quote was a good find!
Frostheart wrote:So either they are clad in a pouch only, or they run around with their hypothetical--couldn't find anything about genderlessness--wossnames exposed
Well, Demondim-spawn are spawned/made, not born. That's stated. It would be plausible to presume no babies, no baby-making, and no baby-making apparatus. That's never stated, of course. But, like the eyes, it's possible to make artistic choices that convey by implication a whole lot about their unusual nature.
Aaaand meant to add yesterday, "Or resemble Barbie dolls." :lol: Elsewise I've designed them to appear "made": no navels or any indications of mammary glands.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Your giants are as delightful as ever. The ur-viles on the other hand are really not how I envision them. They're way too skeletal and lack the essential Ur-vilish smoothliness. They look a little too horror-moviesque. Why does the most prominent ur-vile have lines of skin stitching his lips together?

I have to give it to you, though, they look really brainy. The brain-like lines on the tops of their heads probably have something to do with it.

(I've been thinking of trying to model Ur viles and Waynhim after Moles and Mole rats. As they say, why invent forms when nature is way ahead of us in this department?)

Is that a Covenant butt on the far right? The perspective differences fooled me into thinking he's one of the giants at first.
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

If you look at the thread, the ur-folk went through some evolution (and very happy about this discussion, even though it required a complete reposting of the original). Otherwise, they'd yet bear those undead zombie teeth.

This is the current version, still very much a mess. Just noticed that GB could've well chomped one of the human companions for lunch. Should perhaps do something to those gnawed bones.

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Yeah, I bet every one of us possesses a varied impression of them. :) Can you signalize any quotes referring to their smoothliness?
Speaking of such qualities, there's a pretty cool version on Deviantart, which might be more to your liking? fav.me/d2wumy7
Too bad the artist hasn't finished it.

Yes that's Cov. Ananda wanted to ogle at some firm TC butt, but don't think she'll return any more. :-/ Been thinking of pulling Latebirth more backwards, as she turned into quite a shortarse in any case; so perhaps that might reduce the confusion.

Post away your results when you get your ur-viles modeled! :)
Last edited by Frostheart Grueburn on Thu May 09, 2013 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Frostheart wrote:If you look at the thread, the ur-folk went through some evolution (and very happy about this discussion, even though it required a complete reposting of the original). Otherwise, they'd yet bear those undead zombie teeth.

This is the current version, still very much a mess. Just noticed that GB could've well chomped one of the human companions for lunch. Should perhaps do something to those gnawed bones.

Image

Yeah, I bet every one of us possesses a varied impression of them. :) Can you signalize any quotes referring to their smoothliness?
Speaking of such qualities, there's a pretty cool version on Deviantart, which might be more to your liking? fav.me/d2wumy7
Too bad the artist hasn't finished it.

Yes that's Cov. Ananda wanted to ogle at some firm TC butt, but don't think she'll return any more. :-/ Been thinking of pulling Latebirth more backwards, as she turned into quite a shortarse in any case; so perhaps that might reduce the confusion.

Post away your results when you get your ur-viles modeled! :)
This new version look good. :)

As for the meal leftovers, the company is eating out of the provisions the Ardent gave them. Maybe you should make it mostly eaten sandwiches still half wrapped in wrap paper or if that's too modern a stack of plates with some crumbs and a few little bones.

By the way, I always got the impression from the books that the Demondim spawn staves were metallic rods with pointy ends, with the Lore masters' stave just being a bit bigger. Does Donaldson ever give more details on them? Do they have magical runes like the Staff or are they merely conduits like the heels of the staff and all the magic is in the Demondim spawn themselves? I'm happy you made them more elaborate but I'm curious.

If it isn't too much work, maybe you could add smaller staves to the other demondim spawn. It was always stressed that they all carried staves. Also, maybe make the tip drip a little magic ichor?
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Post by wayfriend »

That's some great work, Frostheart. Of course, I am now starting to recognize the repeating characters, even though I am not sometimes sure which giant is which. I hope you will fill us in at some point. I know Cirrus Kindwind, whom we see here, is the Giant who had lost her arm. But for the life of me I cannot remember any Giant with an eye-patch. I am presuming that Ms. Biceps is Cabledarm, but that's a haphazard guess. I presume that is Ryme Coldspray who occupies the center.

What's the genesis of the little Giant totem/keychain/talisman thingy?
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Repeats? :lol: Oh yeah, this lot from the sordid cartoon. The same quartet as above.

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Kindwind with her one arm, and...erm...*nudges sheepishly at her username*, Latebirth with the eyepatch, and Ms. Biceps, Cabledarm.

I can appreciate the problems with recognizing these characters, considering that the books contain almost no physical depictions whatsoever. They could look like just about anything, sport broken noses and missing teeth for all I know, so regard this as only one alternative. Everything's either based on their names or some scant descriptive dregs, like the fact that a contest about the position of the mightiest (read = strongest) Swordmain persists between Cabledarm and Grueburn; hence thought they could well stand taller than the average giantess. So very twee and ladylike to compare biceps. :roll:

'Lax Blunderfoot' Latebirth: She's clumsy. Thought there might exist a simple reason to this, like the hindrance of a lost eye.


Responding more later, need to go to sleep. Should've been in bed already an hour ago.
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Post by wayfriend »

Absolutely you should fill in the character blanks when creating visual images! Didn't Peter Jackson do exactly this to create thirteen dwarves that were unique rather than clones?

I was just wondering if the book DID say one of the Giants (Giantesses?) had an eye-patch, and I had not caught it.

So that's Ms. F. Grueburn kneeling in the foreground... could have guessed that based on the scars, I suppose. Or read your posts more closely. :oops:
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Post by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm »

Oh, you updated :) Good to see the progress. I can only agree with shadowbinding shoe on smoother ur-viles, well, you've seen mine in Bad Illustrating and on my avatar)

And I have to admit, I also tried to get the information about the eye-patch from my memories :)
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Thanks everyone. :D Yay, discussion! :D

Hmm, can some ur-vile-savvier person extract a quote describing this sleekness or the shapes of their staves? The previous feature would affect also the bloody cartoon, as much of a parody as it is. Did recall the latter being formed of some metallic material (maybe the same as those vitrim cups), but not much else.

shadowbinding shoe wrote: As for the meal leftovers, the company is eating out of the provisions the Ardent gave them. Maybe you should make it mostly eaten sandwiches still half wrapped in wrap paper or if that's too modern a stack of plates with some crumbs and a few little bones.

If it isn't too much work, maybe you could add smaller staves to the other demondim spawn. It was always stressed that they all carried staves. Also, maybe make the tip drip a little magic ichor?

Don't know if the Ardent gathered his picnic supplies from the nearest Subway, tho. ;) I found the page range of this scene within the brick again, have to see if I remembered correctly about the giants enjoying proper food instead of snacks. I have no mental image of paper having ever been utilized in the Land? Either my brains are slowly oozing out through my ears, or they really did write on vellum.

Ichor's easy; drawing hands is one of those grueling phases that takes minor eons, especially with so many figures.

wayfriend wrote: Or read your posts more closely. :oops:
Well, yes, considering that the names stand in the last lines of the very first post. :lol: Didn't even recall it myself while typing the previous message, however. Grueburn translated all that barking in AATE, while Rime labored with a cairn somewhere off-scene like some stereotypical Finnish giant.

What's the genesis of the little Giant totem/keychain/talisman thingy?
Eeh...mainly one of those details left to the viewer's interpretation. I did write elsewhere about my impressions of Giantish deities, and the Viking-age Norse/Finnish culture--which I maintain as my main source of influence--witnessed people bearing tiny statues of Óðinn, Þórr, Freyr, etc. as charms of good luck or protection, together with runic symbols. Yet people don't need to agree with this, so in the case of FHGB, it could fall into the category of a personal keepsake, a gift from some dear friend, anything that adds a thimbleful of personal touch to the character. :shrug:


Generally if one looks at the Giantish clothing and jewelry in this and my other works, they can perceive a bucketload of Norse/Finnish symbols. See FHGB's scabbard: that one's a runic charm for good weather, but I recently changed it to ægishjálmr. symboldictionary.net/?p=730 Then we have variations of ukonvasara (FHGB's pendant), osmansolmu, heart of Turisas, valknut, and so on sprinkled here and there. Sorry, have no inkling as to what some of these should be called in English.



I'm not ascertained whether the Linden POV bears deliberate responsibility for the whole lack-of-giantish-detail or if it's an actual error on SRD's part, but it's rather detrimental to the reader nonetheless. Becomes operose to attempt to track characters with blank spots for faces, and it nastily implies they're fated to fill the role of the standard cannon fodder, hence not worthy of so much as pointing out an individual's hair color. Rime's the single exception to the norm, most of the other details I've slowly built upon deductions drawn from quotes such as in the following:


Rime:
"Streaks of grey marked her short hair, which appeared to sweep back from her forehead of its own accord. Combat and hardship smoldered in her eyes. The lined toughness of her skin suggested age [. . .] old scars latticed her forearms and hands."
--> Swormain life not all pink ponies and perky sunshine, facial scars probably not uncommon either.
Cirrus Kindwind bowed to Mahrtiir--her manner revealed an instinctive sensitivity to his emotional straits.
--> Cirrus in Latin means 'a curly lock of hair' + the cloud type --> light blonde curling hair, a gentle, sunny disposition, also lost her arm.
"Solemnity, ha!" muttered one of the other Giants. "In her lifetime, Rime Coldspray has never drawn a solemn breath!"

"You forget, FHGB," retorted Coldspray, "you who laugh at all jests and comprehend none, that I am not merely immeasurably aged and wise--"
--> Implies Rime's considerably older than all or most of the Swordmainnir.
"When wisdom and cunning exhaust themselves, simple strength must prevail. Observe and learn, Linden Giantfriend!" [Cabledarm] shouted as she broke into a run. "It is with good cause that Cabledarm is acknowledged as the mightiest of the Swordmainnir!"

"Mightiest, ha!" muttered Grueburn, "I claim that title. Free my arms, and I will 'acknowledge' any might that strives to prove itself against me."
--> These two fair ladies wage bicep wars against one another, so likely heftier and taller than their comrades. A name like Cabledarm certainly doesn't connote anything about a lithe, slim ballerina frame in a frilly tutu. :roll:


Then, some random details about who's likely to harbor an inane grin if drawn side by side with others, or prone to some daft interludes:
"At once Coldspray plunged into the Soulsease with her comrades behind her, chuckling as they forged ahead. Without warning, Grueburn threw a splash of water in Cabledarm's face. Stonemage responded by drenching Bluntfist."
and
"By your leave, FHGB will assume the guardianship of your staff in the event that the Feroce essay another approach. We cannot be assured that her mind will not also fall into glamor, as yours did. However--"
"It will not," put in Onyx Stonemage. "You speak of Grueburn, whose natural bewilderment excludes other confusion."
"Fie and folly, Stonemage," Grueburn retorted. "Breathes there a Giant upon the wide Earth whose acquaintance with bewilderment is as intimate as your own?"
--> These two appear to deliver most of the jests, and either GB's a bit barmy, or just the arse of everyone's humor. Now add Lurch's observation about the water carrying to this, and might have to improve her rack up to some degree. :P
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Post by wayfriend »

Frostheart wrote:Hmm, can some ur-vile-savvier person extract a quote describing this sleekness or the shapes of their staves?
They are generally referred to as "iron" and "black", and invariably some sort of black acid can be produced from them. One remarkable specific passage includes: wielding an iron stave that looked wet with power or blood. Also plenty of "dripping with power" etc.

In the Final Chronicles they seem to have ditched "staves" for a scepter/rod/jerrid thing. Possibly it's different (specifically: shorter), possibly it's just Donaldson changing his language. Still black and iron, pointed like a spike at one end. And also dark vitriol glistened on the surface of the iron when the ur-vile was exercising some power.

They have also been described as carrying a long knife with a seething, blood-red blade, or knives of bitter iron: knives like fangs, with bloodred blades which seethed like vitriol. Not sure how a blade can seeth, though. But the blades remain in the Final Cs.

(Also noted this in the first description of the ur-viles: so blackfleshed that no light could gleam or glisten on their skin. Thought that could be useful.)
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Thanks, that should help.

The coloring will have to be subjected to some artistic license. Arduous to depict utterly black figures in a 2D environment without making them look like silhouettes only, or indistinct, oozy blobs. Besides, I can't see what I'm doing if I have to work on a very dark spectrum = requires some outline contrast. (Must filch a partial leaf from marineguy's style manual.)

The smoothliness, however? Haven't managed to locate an exact quote. Some non-slick variants I've found in the following, I wonder if these artists also never spotted such a depiction?

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/album_page.php?pic_id=1826

The intrawebs busted Kevin164's (How many Kevins precisely are there in the Watch? O_o This is becoming a namesake convention.) image links in the relevant thread, but succeeded in locating something anyhow:

2.bp.blogspot.com/_hmX7oLIhkFw/TG99NnheB3I/AAAAAAAAARk/TAwPDQ_EDb8/s1600/Wraith+Dance.jpg
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Post by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm »

I don't exactly remember there being a specific quote, it's more like a general feeling, stemming likely from their overall description, they're not some wild creatures or typical monsters, they're sophisticated in a strange and dark way.

As for the coloring, I tried to pass the forms with dark grey, well, you've seen those - marineguy's style on the vile skin looks very good, but I don't think that's how it's supposed to look - exactly glistening, though I'm not sure if my idea on how to depict that is really better, looks greyish, though at least not glistening. As for the dark spectrum and outlines, you can hardly make them not look flat by depicting them in full black or almost, which many people won't be able to see either. Moreover since some may have darker monitors, I had a O_O look at my own depiction of Hashi when I opened it on a really old computer with an ancient monitor and it looked as if he disappeared into the background halfway.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Can't give you a quote either. It's been a long while since I've read the first, or even the second Chronicles.

But consider this. Body hair / fur is very often linked to the natural and the organic. Even in humans the smooth skin is an artificial look. So when we take into consideration that the ur-viles are artificial beings the smoothness becomes intuitively obvious (though maybe not true after all :( )

(Oh, I see Effy already covered this angle)
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