Chronicles Virgin/First-Timer Questions

[Major Isoor]

As I'm reading the chronicles for the first time, I would greatly appreciate it if no spoilers were posted! Thanks

Alright, firstly, as of this post I'm roughly halfway through The One Tree, and am up to the point where the quest deviates from the route to the One Tree, and are going to attempt to get supplies and repairs from the Bhrathairain Harbour. (hopefully that's spelt right, heh)


Anyway, I've got a small question that I've had since reading that the Starfare's Gem was made of rock: Were the ships of the Unhomed stone, too? Since I'm just curious about that, as the Unhomed Giants requested the Gildenlode keels for their ships, back in Lord Foul's Bane. Since yeah, I'm just curious about whether they've had the stone ships since before they left (since 'keel' is referring to the ridgelike part sort of 'connecting' the two sides of the ship, from the bow to down underneath it, at the stern, right? It's not referring to the entire ship hull, in this case?) all those thousands of years ago, and planned on just sticking the wooden keels onto their stone ships, or if the Giants had some hefty technological/lore breakthroughs since then, which have resulted in their stone ships.

Thanks! (And sorry about the slight wall of text for an alledgedly 'small question'! It was a lot shorter in my mind!)

[Orlion]

As near as I can tell, the implication was that they were made of wood... but in my mind, I always thought Foamfollower picked up Covenant in a stone skiff. I'll have to investigate some more.

[Major Isoor]

As near as I can tell, the implication was that they were made of wood... but in my mind, I always thought Foamfollower picked up Covenant in a stone skiff. I'll have to investigate some more.

Yeah, that's what had me a bit confused, too; I also remember Foamfollower taking Covenant to Revelstone in a stone boat. Although on the other hand, I'm not really sure - if the Giants' boats were indeed stone - how they'd go about attaching the Gildenlode keels, and what their actual practical worth would be. (Gildenlode's properties aside, anyway. Like, would they actually use the keels as proper keels, or just stick them over the top, so they're really just decorative, rather than an integral part of the ship)

[Vraith]

Well, there's more than one kind of keel. I assume they'd "bolt" it on. I always just assumed the giants would use the gilden ones, because of the nature of the wood, using song/lore to speed and aid their direction and travels just like the riverboat [though I don't recall if it was stone or not or if it was ever said...I think it wasn't said, cuz I think I'd recall thinking "a stone canoe?"...but I could easily be wrong]

[Savor Dam]

My recollection is that the material of Foamfollower's skiff is never explicitly mentioned.

What Foamy came to request was Gildenlode keels and rudders. Sure course. Never becalmed. Stronger than stone. He sought this because Lord Damelon had promised this to the Unhomed Giants, as the lore of the Old Lords included such things, which were not known to the Unhomed...and the Lords of the time when Covenant and Foamy visited Revelstone may have had far less lore, but this was still within their abilities.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Didn't Foamfollower's boat have a gildenlode rudder which enabled him to use magic to propel the boat upriver against the stream?

I think the big problem the Unhomed Giants had was that the rock they quarried on the Land's shore was of inferior quality compared to the rocks of their homeland (at least in the department of ship-building) so the ships they could build there wouldn't be able to withstand the long sea trek home. They needed the gildenlode rudders and keels to compensate for this. Not sure if this is true but that was my impression.

[peter]

I don't know for sure but to me the stone ships of the Giants have the right 'feel' about them. There is no mention of the Giants being workers of wood and it doesn't sit right with me re the 'Stone and Sea' refrain. Can I just refresh the situation of the unhomed in my mind as it's a long time since I read the 1st and 2nd Chrons. Did the Unhomed just become lost but arrive in the Land with thier ships intact (implication they would have still had the stone ships from Home - if they were indeed stone) or were they wrecked in some way such that new ships had to be built in the Land. I know the rudders/keels were to be of Gildenlode and constucted by the Lords as a gift to the Unhomed - but were they to be fitted to the original ships or to newly constructed ones. For some reason I have it in my head it was the latter (but that doesn't mean anything! ).

[ussusimiel]

I've checked and as far as I can see Foamfollower's craft was a wooden one with a Gildenlode rudder and keel. Although it's not said, I never got the impression that it was made of stone because I think that if it was TC would have been surprised by it and remarked on it.

I always imagined that the Gildenlode keels for the Giantships were what is called the structural keel (I looked it up), that is the spine that runs down the middle of the boat's hull. I don't imagine them being the large counterbalancing keel that goes deep down into the water (simply because of how much more wood it would take). I also don't imagine that the hulls would be made of Gildenlode (for the same reason).

I also always thought that the Giants were going to build new ships for their journey home rather than fit the new keels and rudders to old ships. (Vraith's idea of bolting the keels on is just too graceless to be entertained )

The keel is the single most important part of the boat (so Wiki says ), so how a wooden one would be integrated into a stone ship (I'm assuming that they would still build with stone) is a really interesting question. I think in terms of structural strength there wouldn't be a problem. It is easy to imagine that Gildenlode is as strong as stone and, maybe, with an extra flexibility that would improve the overall strength of the hull.

The Giants use pitch to bind stone together, so it's not obvious how they would connect stone and wood. However, Gildenlode is a special wood with magical properties so, just as Giants have the lore to work with stone, they might be able to use Gildenlode and stone together in a similar way.

Good question Major Isoor!

u.

[Vraith]

(Vraith's idea of bolting the keels on is just too graceless to be entertained )

The keel is the single most important part of the boat (so Wiki says ), so how a wooden one would be integrated into a stone ship (I'm assuming that they would still build with stone) is a really interesting question.

On the first, yea, that's why I "scare quoted" the word "bolt."
Much of this is retconning and speculation of course...did we know EVER during the first chron's that the giant's ships were stoneware?
But I assumed they would build new, and the keel [whichever kind] would be "melded" {Wived?} into or onto the structure.

[wayfriend]

I think it's simply that the Giant's had granite ships, but not all their ships were granite. I think granite was the premium choice, but wood would do otherwise.

Certainly granite ships were an addition of the Second Chronicles. This leaves us to speculate that perhaps granite shipbuilding wasn't known 3500 years earlier. And possibly that may be related to the discovery of a quarry with the suitable stone. Of course, "it just wasn't mentioned" is always a possibility.

I don't think Donaldson gave it much thought during the first Chronicles. And when his story grew into one that had Giant ships, he thought about it, and decided that stone ships would be appropos for a race whose catchphrase was "Stone and Sea!".

Gildenlode keels and rudders do sound like wooden ships to me, but I think that's because, as I said, wooden ships was a default assumption because no specific thinking went into it. You can rationalize it away as Giants not having access to the right stone, or not having the necessary lore, or not yet having stone shipbuilding technology in that age, or choosing wood because of the need to use gildenlode keels. There's nothing, I think, that follows from any choice one makes, so it's completely left to our imaginations.

The only related thought I have is this. The Giants of the Second Chronicles could get from Home to the Land and back, whereas the Giants of the first Chronicles could not. This points to the latter Giants being superior sailors than the earlier ones. This is consistent with earlier Giants not yet having that lore. And access to that lore may indeed explain the better sailorship.

[Orlion]

It sometimes seems like the Unhomed were an entirely different species from the Giants of the Second Chronicles. The matriarch focus of society that the giants in the Second Chronicles have is completely absent from the descriptions of the Unhomed. This could be simply because the male Giants worked with stone and that became central for the Unhomed survival, but it's interesting to think about.

[ussusimiel]

The only related thought I have is this. The Giants of the Second Chronicles could get from Home to the Land and back, whereas the Giants of the first Chronicles could not. This points to the latter Giants being superior sailors than the earlier ones. This is consistent with earlier Giants not yet having that lore. And access to that lore may indeed explain the better sailorship.

This is possible alright. The Giants may have visited the Elohim in the meantime or simply improved their sailing and navigating abilities. However, I always thought that it was Fate or the Soulbiter that mazed the Giants rather than lack of skill. The Giants in the 2nd Chrons also had Seadreamer to guide them to the Land, so presuming Fate did not intervene again they would have charts to follow to return Home.

It sometimes seems like the Unhomed were an entirely different species from the Giants of the Second Chronicles. The matriarch focus of society that the giants in the Second Chronicles have is completely absent from the descriptions of the Unhomed. This could be simply because the male Giants worked with stone and that became central for the Unhomed survival, but it's interesting to think about.

The Giants we meet in the 2nd Chrons are part of the Search, which seems more like a kind of military mission rather than the voyage of discovery that the Unhomed were on. In the 1st Chrons we never see the military set-up of the Giants. We see Foamfollower fight, but there is no sense that his ability is anything more than that of an ordinary Giant.

u.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

They could also simply lack the suitable material - stone suitable for ships could be found only at Home) Though I agree that it could be a question of achieved or lost lore - imagine what could happen to a human society in even a several times lesser term.

Still, they could be using stone as the basic material, switching to wood specifically to match the keels.

Or they could be compatible after all, with Foamfollower's boat material simply not calling for much attention at that point - weren't there more wonders in the Land? And I don't remember Covenant referring to every bit of unusual circumstances - he didn't even comment aloud he didn't expect the Land's arch-enemy to smell of attar of all things

[shadowbinding shoe]

In the first chronicles we're told that the Unhomed Giants can't find their way back home but that around the beginning of LFB some exploring ship of theirs managed to find familiar landmarks from their journey to the Land. So aside from the quality of their ships they obviously suffered from lack of charts. Maybe along the long journey they lost all their best navigators and charters so couldn't make reliable charts of their journey.

Their journey took decades imo from what we're told of it. They probably explored uncharted seas and took a circuitous route instead of going directly from their homeland to Bharathair and the Elohim island and of course the Land.

The giants of the Seareach on the other hand had a prophet who could show them the shortest path to the Land like ussusimiel said.

So why did they need the special wooden keels? I still believe that the stones of the Giants' homeland were uniquely qualified for shipbuilding. Doesn't Pitchwife say after their mast breaks that the ship can only be truly repaired in their homeland and that anything else they could do along the way in other places would only be a stopgap?

Edit to add - about Foamfollower's boat, would someone from our world who is used to sailing in boats and ships that are made from a material that's even heavier than stone (ie iron/steel) be all that surprised that they have magical stone boats?

[dlbpharmd]

This is one of those questions that we can only speculate about. IMO, the Giants are still sailing in the ships that brought them to the Land. Thus, those ships are made of stone.

[Major Isoor]

Doesn't Pitchwife say after their mast breaks that the ship can only be truly repaired in their homeland and that anything else they could do along the way in other places would only be a stopgap?

Yeah, I remember reading this part the other night, actually. They said they'd be able to make the necessary repairs to the ship after acquiring some granite from the Bharathians, (probably spelt wrong, heh) but they still won't be able to build a new mast, without visiting the Giant homeland.

Also, I just can't get rid of the niggling feeling that there was at least a passing mention that Foamfollower's riverboat was/may've been stone. I read the Wikipedia article, and this seems to confirm my suspicion, (quote below) although naturally it's just Wikipedia, and not the book itself. I'm not at home until late tonight, however, so I sadly won't be able to check, but I'll try to remember to. (and if I do find something, I might scan and upload it, on the off-chance that it wasn't purposely kept vague, and is indeed stone)

The Giants, a seafaring people who live on the eastern coast of the Land, have a strong understanding of the Earthpower, especially as it relates to the Sea and other waters. Foamfollower is able to sail his stone boat up one of the great rivers of the Land to Revelstone, the Lords' mountain fortress.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Foul's_Bane

But yeah, I didn't expect to open a can of worms quite this big, with my question!


Also, Covenant being put into that stupor/catatonic state is definitely high-up among the saddest moments, for me. Currently at the point where he's being interrogated/tortured by the Kemper, with his infant "son" on his back. (I thought he must've been leeching the lifeforce out of the infant before, but Linden detected something more evil/whatever (can't remember the exact wording) in the infant itself, more than with the Kemper, as he was just desiring life itself, sort of thing) Things are certainly getting interesting!

[Major Isoor]

(Sorry if double-posts aren't appreciated here, but I just thought I should, since I'm not sure if it'll mark the thread as unread/having new posts if I just edit the last post)

Welp, I flicked through LFB and found that it is indeed vague about the materials of Foamfollower's boat; just mentioning that it manages to propel itself without any visible means.


Also, I've just reached the point where

Spoiler

Hergrom gets killed by Nom the not-so-friendly Sandgorgon. That was especially sad, as he was my favourite, tied with Brinn. (not sure why, really, but there you go.) Slightly saddening to see that Brinn just dismissed Linden requesting that they at least take away his body, by saying he failed and walked off. Gah, I'd like to see Brinn do better than what those two did!

I can only hope that things start turning around for the party, soon - I was with Brinn in regards to knowing that not much good will come from their stay at the Sandhold...

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

shadowbinding shoe, I read all the thread only later, mentioned you suggested the lack of material earlier, so I just agree - it's a very possible reason. As for metal - it's easier to make into a construction thin and hollow enough, and not as easily breakable no impact - there are reasons we don't have stone ships here) But yes, Covenant could just not address it, he had other things occupying his mind then.

(Sorry if double-posts aren't appreciated here, but I just thought I should, since I'm not sure if it'll mark the thread as unread/having new posts if I just edit the last post)
...

Some here may have conversations with themselves even Yes, it's marked as having new posts only on actual posts, not on edits.

...
Welp, I flicked through LFB and found that it is indeed vague about the materials of Foamfollower's boat; just mentioning that it manages to propel itself without any visible means.
...

Right, like it seemed to me and many others here - no wonder no one could remember it)

Spoiler

...
Gah, I'd like to see Brinn do better than what those two did!

...

Don't take the laughter itself as a spoiler, it could well mean it any way - that he screwed up terribly or succeeded awesomely, or both.

[Menolly]

Major Isoor, I felt this might be the most appropriate place to warn you about two seemingly innocent threads which may contain potential spoilers for you.

There is a thread in General Discussion called "Win Wayfriend's Money." The current contest has to do with the final chrons. There is another thread in General Discussion called "Watch and SRD-related song parodies." Some of the songs may have to do with the chrons beyond where you are currently in the plot.

I see the OP of the thread edited the title to say *expect spoilers.* (thanks LF!) But wanted to warn you to take that seriously anyway.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I don't think Donaldson gave it much thought during the first Chronicles. And when his story grew into one that had Giant ships, he thought about it, and decided that stone ships would be appropos for a race whose catchphrase was "Stone and Sea!".

Or perhaps SRD just went berserkergang with his Norse mythology tidbits. In Bárðar saga Snæfellsáss (a story about the descendant of a Norse half-troll and a Finnish giantess that travels to Iceland and eventually becomes the guardian vættr of Snæfellsnes), a giant sails with a stone boat, and an interesting footnote claims this scarcely remains as the single occurrence.