The One Tree

[Vraith]

AND...that made me realize::: Brinn DEFINITELY knew exactly who/what he was fighting and how it would do battle, if not the whole time at least he did as soon as he saw the Guardian. The Har. do not forget. . To me, that changes the tone/implications of the Haruchai story up to that point [at least it might... on my next read through it'll be in my mind.

I don't think anyone else has followed that thought before...apologies if I'm accidentally plagiarizing someone.[/color]

Brinn couldn't have done that.
When the Theomach became the Guardian the "transcended" (i think that was the term) his name. So he couldn't be invoked anymore.

"the Theomach passed beyond self and craving to join the rare company of those who do not heed death. And therefore the Vizard did not scruple to reveal the Theomach's true name, for he could not longer be harmed by it."

Damn, I forgot that...definitely does in my first speculation [I didn't believe it anyway, but now it's not even a fun "what if."]
I'm not sure it ruins the second though...Brinn has knowledge of what he'll face in a much more literal/"personal" way than I'd been thinking of it before...
Still, not as much fun, now, with that reminder.
/sigh.

[ussusimiel]

On the last, I'm pretty sure you're close to right...I THINK I remember something from the G.I. where SRD said he hadn't come up with the Insequent yet, per se, but the space they fill/role in the story was there and intentional. Pretty sure he also said there was an "oops" with the Guardian timeline.

A couple of things suggest themselves from this retcon. If the Elohim set the Guardian then they would have probably set one that no mortal (not even the Haruchai) could defeat. But!!! The Deus Ex nature of the Insequent foils this, thus allowing Berek to fashion the original Staff, and allowing Covenant to get Vain into the Cavern the second time round.

One interesting point here is that Brinn's victory, however brave, becomes hollowed out a bit because essentially the Theomach let him win. If you follow the fight closely Brinn was out on his feet by the time he is forced to the cliff edge. The Guardian had effectively won. By pressing to try and knock Brinn over the edge he gave a defeated opponent an unnecessary opportunity. Hence the partially falsified nature of the Haruchai victory. (No wonder they are so hard on themselves, everyone is always trying to make them feel good about themselves )

This is why, for me, the original explanation works better i.e. that Berek set the Guardian there initially. That that Guardian was the Theomach then works for me, because it allows for the element of self-sacrifice to be the key to gaining access to the One Tree.

There may also be some retconning going on because Brinn (as Guardian) says that he is many beings because that that is how the Guardian is renewed over the ages. He implies that ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol is the general, rather than specific, name for the Guardian. This would indicate that at the time of writing of WGW that SRD had no conception yet of the Insequent.

u.

...which gave me a thought that isn't likely to be true, but I really like it:
Brinn was able to defeat the Guardian because he knew it's true name.
He wouldn't use it, even if he knew the power the name would have...that's "lore," or a "weapon," in their terms. Still, knowledge is power....

Well, he does have the Theomach's real name, Kenaustin Ardenol, which on its own is really interesting. How did they come by this really powerful information? Did someone like the Vizard tell them? Did the Theomach himself plant the information specifically for this purpose to drive the Haruchai out into the world? It's an interesting retcon and raises lots of suggestive stuff regarding the Elohim, the Guardian and the One Tree.

u.

[wayfriend]

One interesting point here is that Brinn's victory, however brave, becomes hollowed out a bit because essentially the Theomach let him win.

Here we get into some interesting territory.

I think Brinn really won. However, I think it was equally important to Donaldson how Brinn won. Essentially, he had to "win by failing".

The Haruchai in the Second and Last Chronicles are on a story arc that leads to their redemption. In the Second Chronicles, the theme Donaldson reiterates is that the the Haruchai have to understand that failure can be a good thing, because it makes one stronger. In the first Chronicles, the Bloodguard dried up and blew away because the could not countenance failure. But Cail was able to resist the Clave because he had fallen prey to the merewives, whole those of his race who did not became enslaved. When Brinn defeated his ak-Haru by throwing himself off a cliff, this is the same message: you cannot reach your full potential until you've failed a few times.

Donaldson says something very similar about Hile Troy's failures in the first Chronicles: "Only a person who has truly experienced the consequences of his/her own destructive actions is qualified to evaluate--is, indeed, capable of evaluating--his/her future actions in order to make meaningful choices between destruction and preservation." You have to have been bad to truly understand the necessity of good. You have to have been wrong to appreciate what's at stake with being right. And you have to have failed in order to be strong enough to persevere.

This is nothing less than the key to the resolution of paradoxes. Every strength is a weakness ... AND every weakness is a strength.

The First said to Mistweave, "Failure is only failure. It is not unworth". But Cail was initially rejected by his fellow Haruchai because of the merewives: "It is agreed that I am unworthy." But after he broke the Clave's spell because he had failed: "It is agreed that such unworth as mine has its uses." The Haruchai are on the path of redemption.

(In the Third Chronicles, this issue takes on a new form, represented by their unwillingness to be healed. If failure is not unworth, than also unworth is not failure.)

So, for these reasons, I am feeling that Brinn really won. The nature of his victory wasn't a gift of the Guardian. It was a learning moment for the Haruchai.

[ussusimiel]

The nature of his victory wasn't a gift of the Guardian. It was a learning moment for the Haruchai.

I agree, but I think that the Haruchai didn't learn that until later. What they felt at the time is that they had proved their worth by defeating an almost unbeatable opponent. If the Guardian gave them any gift it is the one you outline. I don't think that the Elohim would be bothered bestowing such a gift.

u.

[Lord Foul]

It laso means that when the Worm will see Linden holding her staff it's going to get mighty angry and will be 'One Treeing' her!

Don't make it sound so dirty, someone may make a hentai out of it. And we already have the obligatory tentacle monster.

Curious, haven't seen Horrim in this thread after this, I wonder if he's already avoiding it or someone should kindly recommend him to have a look.

The nature of his victory wasn't a gift of the Guardian. It was a learning moment for the Haruchai.

I agree, but I think that the Haruchai didn't learn that until later.

I'd say they didn't learn later as well. Look at their behavior with taking the position of the Masters.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I wonder if he's already avoiding it or someone should kindly recommend him to have a look.

Is the latter portion supposed to encourage him to initiate something regarding the Lurker, the Staff and Lin...errrr nevermind.

[Horrim Carabal]

I wonder if he's already avoiding it or someone should kindly recommend him to have a look.

Is the latter portion supposed to encourage him to initiate something regarding the Lurker, the Staff and Lin...errrr nevermind.

I am lurking, always lurking.

But yes, reading this thread. Waiting for the opportune moment to jump in.