Jeremiah shouldn't be a deus ex machina

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

And I doubt he will be, either as the unexpected solution to some major problem or even as far as teleporting people around goes. Consider the latter: we've only seen him teleport people through an arch made by his arms and Roger's, and then through a construct made from Garrotting Deep. Even then, only three people, none the size of Giants, got shifted around. If we need to be teleporting Linden, Stave, etc. together, then to do it Jeremiah's way would require building something large enough for all of them. And out of what?

This scene could take place, but if it does it won't be out of nowhere, it'll be the focus of a chapter or more, with enemies intervening to stop it.

Also, I think it's important that the constructs are all described in terms of doors. I was thinking that Jeremiah might make a new Colossus. But how would he use a *door* to do that? And what would he even make it from? So now I'm reluctant to think of these constructs as likely solutions to problems like the Worm or Her.

As far as the Worm goes, for instance, suppose Linden had not resurrected Covenant but had gone with the Harrow to rescue Jeremiah at that time instead. Then the Worm would not have awoken, or it would've taken something else to wake it up (e.g. the unconstrained skurj). But Jeremiah would still be crucial to the plan of salvation devised by the council of the Dead that Covenant remembers near the end of AATE. (Notice how rousing the Worm is something for the Dead council "to consider," not the primary issue.) So whatever he's for, Jeremiah might not be for the Worm at all, at least not directly. (Perhaps the Harrow's explanation of his own counterfactual intent towards the Worm applies to the Dead, too, that they sought to keep the Worm asleep with Jeremiah's powers--but for Infelice's reasons among others, I doubt this.)

(Also, the Worm didn't need to wake up for the krill to be released for use against the croyel since Covenant didn't free the dagger anyway: Linden's companions did by breaking the stump it was stuck in, therefore Covenant didn't have to be resurrected for the protagonists to gain access to the krill. Linden could even have used the dagger's amazing power just to get the dagger unstuck instead of triggering doomsday. --Alternatively, waking the Worm to get at the krill was a *corollary* to the central Dead goal of freeing Jeremiah, so that's still not what Linden's son is meant to stop.)

Let's move on to Her. I've elsewhere come up with an argument for the Masters being the solution thereto. Here, I'll review evidence for and against Jeremiah as this solution. First, Her rousing is listed as a Desecration, just like the rousing of the Worm. Dealing with Kevin's Dirt and sojourning to the Lost Deep, if part of the plans of the Dead, could have been expected to catalyze Her will to havoc. So rescuing Jeremiah and unleashing the full power of the Staff of Law, rousing Her in the process, were, despite the level of atrocity involved, expected by the Dead. But Loric alone even hinted at Her, and then not by name (pun not intended)--he emphasized the Illearth Stone instead.

Covenant promises to set Her free, though, so maybe Jeremiah will build a door for Her back to eternity. (At the site of the EarthBlood? That's where the materials for that kind of door are. I really hope the final showdown is not at the Skyweir, though.)

Another area where Jeremiah might prove helpful would be in getting Mahrtiir far enough away from the Land to "come back" later. Teleporting one man would be more likely than teleporting all of Linden's crew, anyway...

But perhaps there's some major misdirection going on, here. According to the Theomach, Time is imperiled first and foremost. The Despiser wants to imprison the Creator? And how would Jeremiah build a door that the Creator would be willing to walk through and never get out of? I don't care about the materials, the "mutable" substance of "all things," I'm talking about the configuration.

Moreover, though, why would Jeremiah do this? If he were possessed by a Raver? If that were the ultimate threat, I can see why restoring the lost Interdict would be imperative: to prevent the Ravers from giving the Despiser the power to eternally end Creation. As much as Linden is horrified by possession, and as stark as the warnings of the Ranyhyn against possessing Jeremiah have been... (Although a battle between Linden and a Raver for control of her son would be an interesting showdown.) On the other hand, the failure of the Interdict/ancient forbidding is related to the Worm by Anele's commentary, so, yeah...

So anyway, back to the Theomach's remark. Suppose the Despiser's supposed plan to imprison his Enemy is a ploy. Suppose he's just making it seem like he wants to do something eternally evil like that, to distract the protagonists from his real goal, which is the same goal he's always had: to escape Time, for which "he does not require the boy."

So (I say for the more than third, maybe last, time), can Jeremiah defeat the Despiser? But if he did, then he would be the answer to Despite. Jeremiah does not archetypally seem like the answer to Despite. I used to think he'd make a door to a new Earth, but if the Land's Earth is a platonic, not a spatially different, dimension of reality, I don't see where the door would go, unless it was to the Creator's realm and everyone in our entropy-ridden demesne becomes transcendent by ending up there.

Then Jeremiah would be a deus ex machina in his own way.

[wayfriend]

So (I say for the more than third, maybe last, time), can Jeremiah defeat the Despiser?

In the first Chronicles, Covenant defeated the Despiser.

In the second Chronicles, Linden defeated the Sunbane, and Covenant defeated the Despiser.

In the third Chronicles, need you ask who will defeat the Despiser? I suspect it will go something like this: Jeremiah defeats X, Linden defeats Y, and Covenant defeats the Despiser.

Jeremiah, the Worm? That seems indisputable at this point. The new Creator vs. Destruction Incarnate.

Linden ... Kastenessen and the skurj? SWMNBN?

I hadn't thought of it this way before, but because of your post, now I have. So thanks!

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I don't think Jeremiah is meant to stop the Worm. It doesn't even sound like the Dead councilmembers gave priority to stopping the Worm in their planning. But we know from Covenant's hazy impressions post-resurrection that Jeremiah is crucial to the intent he came up with when he was one of the Dead. Now on the other hand, Jeremiah could get the Worm trapped with the Elohim if it followed them into his trap-door (pun intended). But other than that IDK what he really can do about the Worm. Whatever the Harrow intended, depended on the contrivance of the croyel, plus it might've ended all life on Earth anyway.

Also, Linden seems to think that Covenant is the one to deal with the Worm (somewhere early in AATE, can't find it off the top of my head). Of course, this could be bad logic on her part; Covenant could just as well conclude that such a battle would hazard the Arch.

Or, going with a redemption theme, since Linden woke the Worm, she owes it to everyone to stop it.

Now as for Her, as mighty as She is, since She's fueling Kevin's Dirt and that's the interdict against the Staff, I think She'll be dealt with prior to Kastenessen and the skurj. I don't think the Dirt is being generated over and over again, since Esmer helped make it and now that he's gone, that would seem to limit chances of casting a Dirt "spell" again, as it were. And the Haruchai are my bet on Her pacification.

... Which still leaves me with trying to figure out what Jeremiah is for. It seems to me that the council of the Dead ended with a vote on the importance of Jeremiah that didn't depend on whether the Worm woke up. I argued that Jeremiah's freedom didn't depend on Covenant's resurrection, so freeing him was important for a reason that didn't depend on something being done to wake the Worm. That is, if Linden had freed her son before deciding to resurrect Covenant, Jeremiah would still have had an important role to play in the outcome of the Earth, yet the Worm's quiescence continued then would have precluded his role being that of the one who stops the Worm (barring, again, the Harrow's kind of thinking). The Dead didn't know about the imprison-the-Creator scheme the Despiser has come up with, so they weren't trying to protect the Creator. (Which makes me ask: how did the Elohim of all people figure out what Foul's secret goal allegedly is? Or did he just whisper another word to someone, here...?)

... None of this is meant to deny that Jeremiah may, in fact, be the only one with the power to stop the Worm. I just don't think it's his ultimate purpose in the story.

[Horrim Carabal]

So (I say for the more than third, maybe last, time), can Jeremiah defeat the Despiser?

In the first Chronicles, Covenant defeated the Despiser.

In the second Chronicles, Linden defeated the Sunbane, and Covenant defeated the Despiser.

In the third Chronicles, need you ask who will defeat the Despiser? I suspect it will go something like this: Jeremiah defeats X, Linden defeats Y, and Covenant defeats the Despiser.

I agree. Covenant is his huckleberry.

[Vraith]

I'm going to be a bit pedantic here just for a second.
Jeremiah can't be a deus ex machina pretty much by definition [unless something really weird happens...though he certainly could end up being an unsatisfying addition/storyline/conclusion].
Other than that...some neat ideas and questions in there, stuff worth pondering.

I suspect that WF's structure/format is largely correct...though perhaps a bit more cooperative/overlapping this time.

And connected to that Har./SHE thing: I liked that...not sure if it will work that way, yet it's fun...but I AM sure that a "restored" SHE is part of the solution to LF. [if only intermediate/indirect by being part of the forbidding of the Worm, defeating that part of LF's plan...but I suspect something more intimate between them...or maybe just hope for that]

[Lambolt]

Surely the whole point of Jeremiahs abililty to create these weird looping infinite structures is for him to hold either the worm or foul in there for all time?

[dlbpharmd]

Surely the whole point of Jeremiahs abililty to create these weird looping infinite structures is for him to hold either the worm or foul in there for all time?

I believe that's the consensus of everyone here.