B*tch slapped!! (spoilers)

[wayfriend]

mbodied empathy from those who have already walked the same way.

I need to think about that. Nice.

[lurch]

yea,,it goes back to what Linden keeps telling Jerry..we are not our failures...SHE with the Help of Linden and the Urviles..is enabled to Not Be the sum of her failures...literally!..

It seems to me that the Urviles speaking to her in her own language invokes " mystery". Yes, each knows failure as an accepted and only perspective and its clear the Urviles see a win win for all ,so escaping the Land, for SHE was part of the private discussion I would think, but,,since this is a final scene for the Urviles, their " mystery" needs to be upheld. They hit the Lotto after a millenia of buying numbers...
how does any one " win" the Lotto? Mystery..the female spirits get a second chance to get Love right, How does that Happen? the Mystery of..Grace..

[wayfriend]

Still thinking some thoughts about this.

One thought is ... frequently She is described as "being" the women she has absorbed into herself. After Linden has freed them all, She would no longer "be" them. She would only be her original self.

Does "I AM MYSELF!" pertain to this?

Could it be that She did not know her true name because she confused her identity with those that she accumulated?

Does she represent the danger of "consuming" others without the correct considerations of identity?

Another thought is ... if the ur-viles have such a large role in this, especially if they provide the knowledge Vraith suggests ... then this has implications on the Linden-is-She argument. The ur-viles play a significant part in the final confrontation.

[Vraith]

Still thinking some thoughts about this.

One thought is ... frequently She is described as "being" the women she has absorbed into herself. After Linden has freed them all, She would no longer "be" them. She would only be her original self.

Does "I AM MYSELF!" pertain to this?

Could it be that She did not know her true name because she confused her identity with those that she accumulated?

Does she represent the danger of "consuming" others without the correct considerations of identity?

Another thought is ... if the ur-viles have such a large role in this, especially if they provide the knowledge Vraith suggests ... then this has implications on the Linden-is-She argument. The ur-viles play a significant part in the final confrontation.

A lot of that I want to just say "yes" to...or at least nearly yes.
But I also want to talk/think on it...while being wary of analogizing that becomes TOO literal in interpretation.
SHE is, in some sense "them." But they are in some sense "her."
It's kinda like a psychotic break. Which ARE you? The person BEFORE the break, or the person AFTER? Well...both, but also not.

In eating those women, there's a similarity to those who can't stop picking at their wounds. Or to those who cut themselves. Removing those souls, taking the blade away is the first step to healing...but only the first step. That is part of what Linden does. But Linden and the ur-Viles ALSO aid in the next part: healing the CAUSE of the wound, the "break."
[[and both Linden and the ur-Viles have been through this, have had to heal themselves first]].
I don't want to misinterpret Z and others thoughts on TC IS LF, Linden IS SHE [or Joan]...cuz I'm not sure exactly how literally they mean it.
I see it as less literal than "A is A" but more literal than signs/signifier/signified. I don't know how clear that is, if it makes sense.

And that also leads to something I'm still pondering.
It seems to me implied, and important, that SHE is [and needs to be?] OUTSIDE the Arch [which expands her in ways, moves her into the Ideal/Pure/Immortal realm...but limits her, too. SHE can't reach INTO the world anymore, no more than the Creator could] but LF is [and needs to be] INSIDE [though still contained/restrained, cage within cage].
It could be as simple as "well, if LF is out there, he can just run around sticking his hand into all Creations, thereby destroying them."
But it may be more like: Love [or Meaning or Transcendence or Knowledge...I think SRD means Love as the primary, but I also think...SRD may or may not...the others are aspects/faces of the first] needs to always, in part, have an essence that partakes of "distance." Much of its necessity and value lies in being unreachable/untouchable.
Despite, OTOH, is necessarily close, in your face, something you must engage and grapple with. It is hard, sweaty, muscular, personal work.

FWIW.

[wayfriend]

Removing those souls, taking the blade away is the first step to healing...but only the first step. That is part of what Linden does. But Linden and the ur-Viles ALSO aid in the next part: healing the CAUSE of the wound, the "break."

Absolutely.

The trouble is ... what healed her? The passage is brief. Linden apologizes to Elena. She frees the captured spirits. The ur-viles accept them. Linden tells She how to free herself. And the ur-viles chant to Her.

Which one of these things healed her?

Was she restored by the scene of an apology for a betrayal?
Was she moved by the rescue of her kindred spirits?
Was she healed by the ability to escape?
Did the ur-viles provide a knowledge which relieved her torment?

"But being trapped in Time is different for Love than it is for Despite. [...] It outraged the Despiser, but it made Diassomer Mininderain insane."

Such statements argue that the redemption of SWMNBN was accomplished by affording her freedom. Restored to infinity, she was freed from torment. That is how the CAUSE of her wound was healed.

[Vraith]

Such statements argue that the redemption of SWMNBN was accomplished by affording her freedom. Restored to infinity, she was freed from torment. That is how the CAUSE of her wound was healed.

The LAST step, yes. But all the other stuff you listed contributed, and had to come first.
Because of the "peril" earlier mentioned.
SHE had to have some measure of healing, some significant restoration of sanity/comprehension first.
Because the Worm is feeding, and the Arch is dissolving....
BUT, SHE named BEFORE sanity...that is an instant/immediate obliteration of the Arch [not to mention everyone present...and freeing of LF, too.]

[dlbpharmd]

"But being trapped in Time is different for Love than it is for Despite. [...] It outraged the Despiser, but it made Diassomer Mininderain insane."

It's passages like this that drive me insane! It's no wonder so much confusion exists about She and DM.