The Narrative of the Chrons

[lurch]

also...yea..I've been pointing out the narrator as unreliable for awhile now.. Understand that this is not New. The unreliable narrator can be seen in ..The Turning of the Screw..and as recent as A. Phillips's The Egyptologist..where every one is at least one off from reality....The point of the Unreliable Narrator is...that Reality is Subjective...even the Story Teller exaggerates or mis-perceives or..just gets it wrong. The idea is for the reader to seek any.".Truth" elsewhere. The Truth is in how the reader Feels,,the input from the readers senses is the only Truth. How the author makes you feel , your feelings ,are the Truth..its Your Truth.Your Humanity, .Its Who You Are.

Is the Story Teller responsible for the mixed perceptions of the Haruchai?...Hey..its repeated that its TC having the horrible visions of Clyme Suey..Even with a recent reading of Donaldson's " Gilden Fire" where the Haruchai Oath is explained..i side with TC as seeing it as a mis guided extravagance that is based on inadequacy. Again,,not the free'est of thinkers these Haruchai...In awe of the beauty of the Land and the fantastic edifice Revelstone, the haruchai make an oath to guard and protect...rather than learn how to free their minds to explore what imaginations they may have and create from. ,,as the Giants have. Obviously, coming from the Northron Mountains , an existence of harsh and severe cold reality, the metaphor of their mental outlook seems obvious.

The question becomes,,can we take a step back,,and find a compassion for these.." warriors"? I think that is the author's intent. Compassion is a balanced thing; made up of perceiving as many angles of the subject as possible. By the end of TLD, Stave, handicapped and changed,,survives. I ask the question elsewhere..did Stave pay too heavy of a price for his father's sins..did he have to suffer extravagantly in order to find a way to change,to continue on, in order to find a different way?

The only difference between the Haruchai and Joan is..the Haruchai are made to change, are brought to seeing their error. Joan is locked in to her " insanity" and is made dead as a result.,,Great metaphor there btw..

[peter]

Ok - well, we may have to agree to differ on this one but I do see where you are coming from. One point - you make reference to the H's 'not sharing the beauty of the Land with it's people'. I don't quite get this. One is tempted to say 'what people?' [I think Liand is the only stone-downer/woodhelvenin person we encounter in the entire last Chrons] but let us accept that they are there. What have the H actually done. They have witheld the knowledge of the Wards and of Earthpower and no more. They have not ruled the people; they have not tied them into service or placed them under a system of govornance in which they have no say. They have simply left them to be - and the people for [what?] reason have done nothing. Where is their societal structure. Where is their sign of taking up responsibility for their own lives and their own plight. Where is the evidence that they [like the lords of old have 'stepped up to the plate' and shown themselves worthy of being granted acess to power great in both potential and danger. Rather do they not seem as children who failing to develop and organise, one would fear the repercussions of alowing them free acess to Power. Remember - even in the Epilogue there is no mention by Stave of the actual people of the Land being admitted to the Council [might be wrong here but I think not ] and no complaint by TC that they are not.

[Dondarion]

I see the Haruchai as guardians against the Land's historical capacity to be destructive to itself. Kevin despaired and caused ruin, and that cost The Land the trust of the H, and so TC was like a savior, Berek reborn, and the H gave him their absolute loyalty based on their oath. And yet, the world still had the capacity to despair and fall victim to ruin and waste. So, when TC dies, the H sort of despair in their own right, giving up, and becoming protectors against anyone actually realizing the Land's possibilities. They shut it all out from the people, so they will forget. But it's part of their heritage, buried inside, and Liand represents that yearning for truth. As far as it goes, it must be working, since LF is stagnate, going nowhere. But nothing thrives, the Land is dead. And so it must be stirred anew (by whom? LF? The Creator?) for rebirth in the Land, for LF to escape, for good and for evil to coexist, and test free will again.

The H don't want free will, too many failures, too many oath violations. But it's not theirs to forbid, they must humble themselves and their pride. Linden and TC know this. They love the H for being true, but they know they can be more, they can learn to be true friends, with all it's risks and imperfections. How does this happen? In ways tat are unexpected, just like a normal friendship develops. No set script, no narrative that ties it all in neatly, but by a series of occurrences, sometimes seeming coincidences, events coming about in the least expected ways. But that's how life is sometimes. It's filled with the unexpected ("do something unexpected"). When we do something out of our comfort zone for good intentions, it breeds responses to that act, and things get effected in ways we could not have anticipated early on. We rely on that, it sets things in motion.

So, I agree that the narrative doesnt present the cleanest story line, but I think the plot simply leads us in many unextected directions since that's the way life flows. And there's a larger point to it all. I think SRD wants us to see more than simply how one thing leads to another. It's there, of course, but more important than that is that the characters are chamged along the way. TC comes back because he allows himself to for Linden's sake, for Jerry's, for the Land's. LF wanted it too, of course, but in the end everyone has the capacity to reject evil, and that gives humanity the upper hand. And so it's worth the chance.

This LCs is a series of people coming into their true purposes. The H and the Masters become truly humbled, all of them. So many people contributed to Jerry discovering his capabilities. They did not know why they were doing what they did while they were doing it, only sfterwards could we see it. Each had to do something that allowed another to achieve their own purpose. It was all done on trust. Nobody ever knew what the grand plan was until they were standing there in the moment saying, okay now what? How does one save the world? If that's your mission, all you can do is start with what's right in front of you, realize you can't do it alone, and trust your instincts, and your friends, to choose the right (and perhaps unexpected) way. As Sam Gamgee says, "there's nothing for it Mr. Frodo", you just accept where you are are and where it might lead you.

Anyway, that's why I'm not too critical of the narrative in a story like this. Yes, I am sure it ties together. A indeed begets B, and but for C there could be no D, and so so. SRD would not miss all that, and I will surely one day sketch it all out like I did for Pulp Fiction. But I enjoyed discovering what was between the lines (or the letters). At the end of the day, that's what I will take away from this series, and I think it's what SRD's legasy is for the fantasy genre in general.

Thanks for letting me share. I'm truly humbled to be finally posting alongside so many of you who I have been reading over this last year on this my favorite fantasy blog.

[Dondarion]

I see the Haruchai as guardians against the Land's historical capacity to be destructive to itself. Kevin despaired and caused ruin, and that cost The Land the trust of the H, and so TC was like a savior, Berek reborn, and the H gave him their absolute loyalty based on their oath. And yet, the world still had the capacity to despair and fall victim to ruin and waste. So, when TC dies, the H sort of despair in their own right, giving up, and becoming protectors against anyone actually realizing the Land's possibilities. They shut it all out from the people, so they will forget. But it's part of their heritage, buried inside, and Liand represents that yearning for truth. As far as it goes, it must be working, since LF is stagnate, going nowhere. But nothing thrives, the Land is dead. And so it must be stirred anew (by whom? LF? The Creator?) for rebirth in the Land, for LF to escape, for good and for evil to coexist, and test free will again.

The H don't want free will, too many failures, too many oath violations. But it's not theirs to forbid, they must humble themselves and their pride. Linden and TC know this. They love the H for being true, but they know they can be more, they can learn to be true friends, with all it's risks and imperfections. How does this happen? In ways tat are unexpected, just like a normal friendship develops. No set script, no narrative that ties it all in neatly, but by a series of occurrences, sometimes seeming coincidences, events coming about in the least expected ways. But that's how life is sometimes. It's filled with the unexpected ("do something unexpected"). When we do something out of our comfort zone for good intentions, it breeds responses to that act, and things get effected in ways we could not have anticipated early on. We rely on that, it sets things in motion.

So, I agree that the narrative doesnt present the cleanest story line, but I think the plot simply leads us in many unextected directions since that's the way life flows. And there's a larger point to it all. I think SRD wants us to see more than simply how one thing leads to another. It's there, of course, but more important than that is that the characters are chamged along the way. TC comes back because he allows himself to for Linden's sake, for Jerry's, for the Land's. LF wanted it too, of course, but in the end everyone has the capacity to reject evil, and that gives humanity the upper hand. And so it's worth the chance.

This LCs is a series of people coming into their true purposes. The H and the Masters become truly humbled, all of them. So many people contributed to Jerry discovering his capabilities. They did not know why they were doing what they did while they were doing it, only sfterwards could we see it. Each had to do something that allowed another to achieve their own purpose. It was all done on trust. Nobody ever knew what the grand plan was until they were standing there in the moment saying, okay now what? How does one save the world? If that's your mission, all you can do is start with what's right in front of you, realize you can't do it alone, and trust your instincts, and your friends, to choose the right (and perhaps unexpected) way. As Sam Gamgee says, "there's nothing for it Mr. Frodo", you just accept where you are are and where it might lead you.

Anyway, that's why I'm not too critical of the narrative in a story like this. Yes, I am sure it ties together. A indeed begets B, and but for C there could be no D, and so so. SRD would not miss all that, and I will surely one day sketch it all out like I did for Pulp Fiction. But I enjoyed discovering what was between the lines (or the letters). At the end of the day, that's what I will take away from this series, and I think it's what SRD's legasy is for the fantasy genre in general.

Thanks for letting me share. I'm truly humbled to be finally posting alongside so many of you who I have been reading over this last year on this my favorite fantasy blog.

[Dondarion]

Sorry for the above duplicate post. Computer trickery.

[ussusimiel]

No problem, Dondarion, it happens to the best of us. Sometimes when you click Submit the post is written to the server but an arror message comes back. What I do in a case like that is open the Watch in another browser tab and check the thread there. And even if you double post, so long as your post is the last one in the thread you have the option to delete it. There should be a small button with and X in it beside the Quote button.

Glad to see you're settling in!

u.

[lurch]

D, you bring up the point of things happening, out of the unexpected, etc making the " narrative" blurred or difficult. It seems to me the author is writing in the style of the " parable" which requires an adjustment in perception. Parable isn't so linear ; parabolic, spherical, circular, rather than linear a plus b plus c gets you to d. I think the difference between the parable style and the linear cause and effect logical progression style , has made at least TLD if not much of the Last Chrons , foreign or unfathomable to a lot of the readers. There are plenty of examples but I wish not to spoil any dissect. btw, there are plenty chapters still available to be dissected if you choose to.

[Dondarion]

Yes, Lurch. You say it so succinctly, as always. In fact I think I first started looking at SRDs writings in these parabolic or symbolic ways after I first saw your own early posts when you joined The Watch (i.e., surrealism, etc). I don't profess to grasp the surreal very well, but it certainly opened my eyes to a different way of reading SRD (and others). In fact, I think it's one of the things that would frustrate me when I read TCofTC back in the 1980s. I enjoyed the story, but it didn't read the way I wanted it to read, the way I tried to force it to read, for many of the same reasons posted heretofore. Then I began to ask myself, why SRD might have chosen a particular word in his vast vocabulary, how it is there could possibly be "strength in inadequacy", what does "do something unexpected" mean for me, might I too have my own inner despiser, what deeper meanings are hideen in the chapter names themselves (i.e., "to bear what must be borne"), all of it. It was all about reorienting my perspective, which began to uncover a depth of meaning I had been missing all these years, and I saw TCofTC as something to ponder as true philosophy. It has gratified me greatly.

[peter]

Welcome to the [posting] side of the Watch Dondarion - great post! The schematic for the plot of TLC would be something to see and a fine achievement if you can pull it off.

Can I just ask - does anyone have any ideas pertaining to TC's repeated 'absences' in the 3rd Chrons; that thing where he went off inside himself on journeys into the past. Was that just a side effect of having been dead/removed to the Arch for so long. Did it serve any purpose other than the obvious one of allowing repeated switches between the first person perspectives of himself and Linden. I mean, did he need to be doing that for some reason pertaining to the sucessfull acomplishment of the quest[s]. he seemed to have stopped doing it by the end; was that because in some way the absorbtion of Foul had 'repaired him, made him whole as it were. Any ideas?

[Zarathustra]

The schematic for the plot of TLC would be something to see and a fine achievement if you can pull it off.

I'll give it try ... not really a schematic, though.

After her trials/triumphs of the 2nd Chrons, Linden's life has become an attempt to apply those learned lessons in the form of healing that affirms life rather than rejects death (as she'd done until meeing TC). However, while this "mission of love" is noble and valuable, it is only part of the solution, because her love is unreciprocated (dead lover, unresponsive son), and her attempts at healing don't actually heal anyone, nor entirely satisfy her. She has a "Land-shaped hole" in her heart where her loves don't grow and develop, but merely endure.

This inadequacy presents a tension between protecting her son (i.e. status quo, stagnation) and saving the Land (i.e. protecting Beauty and Life in such a way that it can grow, not stagnate) ... a tension which she would resolve in favor of her son, if forced to choose [a choice delayed by the Creator not showing up].

The plot for the first two books culminates in that delayed choice: she needs her son and her dead lover more than she values the safety of the Land. After seeking enough power to bring Covenant back, she dooms the Land by waking the Worm. After that, for the next two books, she wallows in guilt and self-pity until she becomes brave enough to face what she'd done, forgive herself, and let her son be his own person.

Then a miracle happens, the world is saved, the end.

[Dondarion]

Peter: perhaps part of these "absences" have to do with "unearned knowledge", in that he can't be allowed to share with his companions that which he has come to know as Time Warden, but which they could not possible know yet or ever. It must be experienced, or the Law of Time would be out of whack. He also says somewhere that each time he "comes back" out of these absences, he forgets more of his Time Warden days, and it's harder to remember. So, maybe he fades in and out simply because he is getting used to not being a zombie any more, but also because maybe he can't be involving himself with matters that have to be experienced by the group. And of course, it does facilitate the back and forth point of view shifts. As for whether it actually contributes to the "successful accomplishment of the quest", I would argue that at least it didn't hinder it. Knowledge learned the hard way is way more useful than having it spoon fed to you. And his experience as TW, after all, is an experience in itself, and that probably at least helps to shape the person he is becoming.

[peter]

Ok Z. - I'll buy it!

I'm guessing you probably have at least a part handle on it there Dondarion - I found it a rather irritating plot 'trick' and I won't pretend otherwise, but that may just be the part of me that wanted to see the old TC back again, blasting and curseing his way to sucess as of old .

[Zarathustra]

In some sense, it was a "plot trick," but it didn't really bother me because it's very plausible. No mortal could contain all those memories. And it's a way to give Linden "something broken," which increases her guilt for what she'd done. If it had been used to save the day, it would have been an implausible plot trick. But as it was done, it was merely a quirky way to reintroduce TC after all this Time.

I believe TC stopped "falling through his cracks" after he killed Joan, right? So something about that resolution "healed" him? I'm not sure I get that.

[Orlion]

I believe TC stopped "falling through his cracks" after he killed Joan, right? So something about that resolution "healed" him? I'm not sure I get that.

I think after he killed Joan, he used the power he was wielding to "seal up the cracks". I'll have to find the quote.

[Vraith]

I believe TC stopped "falling through his cracks" after he killed Joan, right? So something about that resolution "healed" him? I'm not sure I get that.

I thought he closed them up before that? Maybe not...but thought it was between escaping SHE and facing off with Joan?

Anyway...it wasn't healing...it was cauterizing/scarring...or maybe more like a corpus callosectomy [which is not quite a real thing]...where even if the info is still in there, there is no possible way to access it.

It may have been a "trick," I suppose...but I liked it cuz I didn't really like TC running around with God-like knowledge and the functional use of a 2-year old on acid.

[wayfriend]

Covenant healed himself, by which I do not mean restoring his memories but removing the propensity to go into a fugue state, when he transitioned from existing in Joan's mind to reality.

Bleeding from more wounds than he could count, Covenant found the path that led toward his present self. At once, he began to work his way along it. And while he arose from the Earth’s past, he fused fissures behind him. He closed cracks. Rife with silver fire, he healed breaks until all of them were mended.

Deliberately he annealed fragments of his former being, rendering them inaccessible so that he could be whole.

Like an astral spirit done with wandering, Thomas Covenant reentered his body in front of Joan.

I think it would be instructive to consider this as presaging the ending of The Last Dark in some way. Creating reality from a dream, coincident with making oneself whole. Eerie.

[Zarathustra]

I'm not sure it's creating reality from a dream as much as it is giving up the past. What's he doing in this scene? He's killing his ex-wife ... or his mind's version of her in this fantasy world (that is, if we take SRD's words in the GI seriously on the continuing possibility, validity, and necessity of that sort of "in his head" interpretation). That's a statement on giving up his previous life, the happiness that was taken from him by leprosy and the end of his marriage, so that he can move forward into the future and become whole. In my opinion, he was killing his memory of her, the last vestiges of her hold upon him.

So the parellel here with "sealing up his cracks" becomes obvious on that interpretation. It would make sense that he would cut off his access to memories that overflowed the bounds of his mortality (or the bounds of what he could bear), by giving up this last tie to his past, this final bit of meaning that his ring still possessed from his previous marriage in order to transfer that meaning upon Linden. Once he "cuts off" those memories, steps into the present, he seals the temporal fractures within himself. Nice.

[Orlion]

That's a pretty neat interpretation, Z. Interesting to think that to move forward, one has to (selectively) give up the past. TC and Jeremiah more than Linden, it would seem (this may also explain why TC is so... cold... towards Roger. He has given up any past feeling towards his son and sees only the lost, desperate figure Roger has become).

[peter]

Yes - I like that too Z. For some reason it sits better with me if I can envisage TC recumbant in a white room and in a vegatative state [to his 'real' world] at the end of TPTP still internally sorting out the dilema of his leprosy, the collapse of his world and the impossibility of the paradox he has been confronted with. This allows hope for poor Joan and Roger to exist even beyond the bounds of their wretched fate in 3C. I can explain much to myself [which at the end is the important thing] by use of this idea.