Underlying reason for TLD humdrumness

[Simanent]

I am aware of the many criticisms of TLD and LC generally, however, I felt that LC could have ended in a way that would have made them seem very good (but that didn't happen).

My concept is that the FC and SC had endings in which LF's defeat depended on the means he had employed to attack The Land and TC.

In the FC LF uses force and raw might as his weapon. He is beaten by the raw might of white gold. Ok he is finally dispelled by laughter, but white gold weakened him enough to make that possible and white gold destroyed the illearth stone.

In the SC LF uses perversion of earthpower so as to make the earth destroy itself. The self destructiveness is mirrored first in LA and in TC allowing himself to be killed. LF attacks with suicide and is beaten by suicide.

In the LC LF attacks time but he is not defeated by time in any obvious way (anyone disagree?). He should have been defeated by being confronted in his own past. His origins should have been examined and challenged. The arch could still have been broken and remade but maybe that would have made more sense if it was happening at the beginning of the world.

[IrrationalSanity]

Well, Foul was effectively defeated by a turnabout of all of the things he did over the course of Time. From the defection and/or defeat of his various minions, to the "Thwak" by She who Should have been Named, to being absorbed by Covenant (who was, after all, an integral component of the Arch of Time). All of these aspects were reversals of the Evil he foisted on the world.

[lurch]

Joy is in the ears that hear...just saying..

[thoughtcube]

I think your points on the FC and SC are interesting - I never thought of it that way before, there is an interesting symmetery there - but in the LC Foul attacks time, but does not attack with time.

I am actually not sure how Foul attacks in the LC. He says he just whispers a few words here and there, and basically lets the evil forces of the world do their thing - Kastenessen, skurj, misguided Masters, surquedrous (first and last time I'll use that word ) elohim, samadhi-led sandgorgons, etc.

Maybe the problem is that Foul isn't directly attacking, and the plot isn't as clear as the last times. I still have a problem understanding how Linden waking the worm was forseen or caused by anything Foul did, for example - was that his strategy, or a stroke of luck for him?

[Savor Dam]

thoughtcube, were Linden's actions motivated at all by Roger's kidnapping of Jeremiah in ROTE and his subsequent impersonation of Covenant and use of the croyel-controlled boy in FR to trick her? Didn't that lead to her decision to resurrect Covenant...which woke the Worm?

Who was pulling Roger's strings?

[thoughtcube]

I guess I don't see how it directly relates. Yes, the kidnapping and other bad stuff happening put pressure on Linden. But resurrecting covenant seems like just one possible reaction. And how did Foul even know it was possible (how could he know Linden would be helped by Cerroil Wildwood to enable her to wield such power)? And how did Foul know that other forces (the dead, etc.) would not oppose it? If just one of the dead had said "you'll wake the worm if you do that" - Linden likely would not have done it.

It just doesn't feel directly connected like Foul's plots in the FC and SC did. Maybe I'm missing something.

[wayfriend]

Simanent, it seems to me that, in the Last Chronicles, Lord Foul whispered words here and there, and tried to get a whole lot of help destroying the Earth. He was defeated because Linden and Covenant got a whole lot of help saving the Earth - quite a number of sacrifices were made.

[Simanent]

Simanent, it seems to me that, in the Last Chronicles, Lord Foul whispered words here and there, and tried to get a whole lot of help destroying the Earth. He was defeated because Linden and Covenant got a whole lot of help saving the Earth - quite a number of sacrifices were made.

The points that everyone has made above are all very good points.

Attacking time was part of Foul's plan but not the dominant part. I was hoping that it would have turned out to be the dominant part- that there would be a plan with an archetypal core like in the other chronicles.

[Zarathustra]

Thoughtcube, in my opinion you're on the right track. Others are entitled to their own opinions, of course, but I didn't want you face the opposition alone.

It's not merely a subjective opinion that Lord Foul's plan was not as clear, straightforward, or even as threatening as his plans in the past. It's a fact that there is simply no counterpart to his war upon the Lords or the Sunbane, as in the 1st and 2nd Chrons. While Linden's act of waking the Worm might seem like a larger, more dramatic version of the Ritual of Desecration, you're right to point out that his role in that event is far from clear or inevitable. In fact, Roger and Kasty tried their hardest to keep her from getting to the krill, even while they apparently served LF. The only thing that "saved" Foul in this instance--assuming he wanted her to get the krill--was that the attempts to keep her from Andelain were nearly (but not quite) as inept as the struggle to get there. It really should have been possible to stop her, given all the forces against her (Roger, Kasty, Kevin's Dirt, skurj, Elohim, Lostson, ravers, cavewights, caesures, etc.). On the other side, we have a handful of giants, an orcrest, Linden's reduced staff, Esmer (sometimes), and Demondim spawn. However, Linden lost much of this help the farther she went. But regardless of how she did it, I don't see how Foul is responsible at all. His forces were working against her attempt to wake the Worm! Unless Linden was doing Foul's will, being manipulated herself by Foul, it doesn't really make sense at all.

If she was being manipulated by Foul, then why try so hard to keep her from doing what he wanted? It also means her friends and the Ranyhyn were mistaken to trust her. There was no need to resurrect Covenant, no need to wake the Worm. It would have been a simple matter to kill Joan, stop the caesures. Kevin's Dirt was a minor problem that could have been solved by the Elohim themselves (assuming that they bothered to put Kasty back in his Durance). Sure, Foul would have still been around (nothing new there), but none of this really necessitated our heroes being there at all.

[Simanent]

Thoughtcube, in my opinion you're on the right track. Others are entitled to their own opinions, of course, but I didn't want you face the opposition alone.

It's not merely a subjective opinion that Lord Foul's plan was not as clear, straightforward, or even as threatening as his plans in the past. It's a fact that there is simply no counterpart to his war upon the Lords or the Sunbane, as in the 1st and 2nd Chrons. While Linden's act of waking the Worm might seem like a larger, more dramatic version of the Ritual of Desecration, you're right to point out that his role in that event is far from clear or inevitable. In fact, Roger and Kasty tried their hardest to keep her from getting to the krill, even while they apparently served LF. The only thing that "saved" Foul in this instance--assuming he wanted her to get the krill--was that the attempts to keep her from Andelain were nearly (but not quite) as inept as the struggle to get there. It really should have been possible to stop her, given all the forces against her (Roger, Kasty, Kevin's Dirt, skurj, Elohim, Lostson, ravers, cavewights, caesures, etc.). On the other side, we have a handful of giants, an orcrest, Linden's reduced staff, Esmer (sometimes), and Demondim spawn. However, Linden lost much of this help the farther she went. But regardless of how she did it, I don't see how Foul is responsible at all. His forces were working against her attempt to wake the Worm! Unless Linden was doing Foul's will, being manipulated herself by Foul, it doesn't really make sense at all.

If she was being manipulated by Foul, then why try so hard to keep her from doing what he wanted? It also means her friends and the Ranyhyn were mistaken to trust her. There was no need to resurrect Covenant, no need to wake the Worm. It would have been a simple matter to kill Joan, stop the caesures. Kevin's Dirt was a minor problem that could have been solved by the Elohim themselves (assuming that they bothered to put Kasty back in his Durance). Sure, Foul would have still been around (nothing new there), but none of this really necessitated our heroes being there at all.

One is obliged to credit Foul with (incomplete) foresight for being able to arrange such exact outcomes from such messy situations with such minimal interventions (although I would say that any action taken by any ravers can be considered to also be Foul's interventions). When Linden is summoned she is shown a vision of The Worm's rousing. Are we to suppose that is Foul trying to put the idea in her head and by exploiting her 'perversity' influence her to take actions that will wake The Worm, or are we to believe that Foul has himself foreseen The Worm's rousing?

[hurtloam]

Well, w/r/t Linden's journey to Andelain, it seems to me that Foul was just letting things play out, letting his allies and servants do their thing for their own reasons, but that maybe, if Linden looked incapable of surmounting those obstacles, he would have done something to "aid" her, like he did by guiding her to hurtloam. Certainly, Foul is far more subtle in the LC than he was in either of the first two Chronicles. Or maybe he had something else in mind entirely, and just used the Worm to his advantage, like he used the Sandgorgons when samadhi within them caused them to offer themselves up for service.

Why, though, does he direct ALL of the sandgorgons and ALL of the skurj at the company instead of saving SOME of them to pin down the Masters trying to defend Revelstone? Or at least to keep the Masters from Mt. Thunder? Why not rely on tens of thousands of Cavewights, more intelligent than skurj or Sandgorgons, who probably could be counted on to deliver Jeremiah to him intact?

It seems that SRD was so focused on the psychological aspect of things (everything in the Land is a projection of Covenant's own psyche, or Linden's, or Jeremiah's) that he wants to beat us over the head with the idea that Foul is doomed to fail because he's only the reified self-hating part of Covenant, and thus can't help but sabotage himself. Thus, SRD doesn't really have to work as hard to make all the details hold up, or provide a logical explanation why Foul and his servants act as they do.

For one thing, why, in all his eons trapped on that Earth, doesn't Foul ever once go to Melenkurion Skyweir HIMSELF, drink the Earthblood, and Command the Worm to wake up?

[peter]

Can I just get this straight in my head. Linden obviousely did not know she would wake the worm by raising TC [why would she - last time it was messing with the One Tree that nearly woke the thing (back when it was big enough to slough of the Earth like a badger shaking of the pile of leaves it had been sleeping in)]. Clearly Foul would have needed the agency of a woken worm in order to escape his temporal prison, so he would have been pro her raising TC from that pov. But then TC could never be trusted not to defeat Foul by enexpected means so a bit of him [Foul that is] would have been not entierly happy with the idea of an extant and alive TC wandering about the world meddling with his plans. Why would Foul not concentrate his attentions on waking the Worm via the One Tree route rather than the waking TC route. Also, did Foul have some kind of 'plan B' for escaping the World that did not involve the waking of TC [screwing with the One Tree would be such a plan I suppose - but I mean rather one that Donaldson had actually outlined, but I have failed to pick up on [something about schemes wrapped in traps concealed behind plans type of thing.
re Z.s point above - were Roger and the Croyel and Kasty and the skurj etc all working for Foul [if so the question as to why they were trying to prevent Linden from waking TC is a real difficult one to answer] or did they [Roger and the Croyel for example] have agenda's of their own to pursue that could explain this apparent breakdown in the logic of the story.

[Zarathustra]

I think Roger/Croyel definitely had an agenda of their own, even though they were "employees" of Lord Foul. Bad guys tend to betray or undermine each other. However, if Roger/Croyel were doing something that Foul didn't want (i.e. preventing Linden from waking Wormy), then why didn't LF help Linden against his insubordinate underlings? Rather than help her, he made matters worse by having his Raver induce a caesure out of Joan [Fatal Revenant, against the Woodhelven], which was not only an additional obstacle to Andelain, but the prelude to Roger's attack. Was the Raver a disgruntled "employee," too?

I can't find any evidence of Lord Foul doing *anything* to make the events of the LC happen, except to help Linden find Hurtloam in Runes. Not even through his subordinates. He seems to have no scheme whatsoever.

[mcnpauls]

Why would Foul not concentrate his attentions on waking the Worm via the One Tree route rather than the waking TC route..

In AATE Donaldson stated the Guardian of the One Tree was proof against Lord Foul's own attempts to wake the Worm.

[Dondarion]

In the LCs,  Lord Foul is constrained by TC being the timewarden, so he needs to get TC outta there, so he himself can bust out of jail, and get the Creator imprisoned so he can destroy all creation.  To do that, he does set things in motion. He needs Jerry and his legoland constructing mind.  That's what's happening back on haven farm with his possession of all the Joan-like  minions, and his causing the deforming of little Jerry's hand "you are mine", and later Roger kidnapping Joan and Jerry, and their translation to the land.  Linden needs to come too, so she can become all filled with passion to get her son back,  get vengeance, etc.  One way or the other, LF will break that Arch.   And then Jerry and LF will be on their way.  And whatever Linden may do, LF figures he can risk it to fail, due to typical human guilt and ego and weakness.

But the Croyle and Roger do indeed have their own desires as well, they want to use Foul to become eternal, and so they go along with the idea to suck in Linden with the "Blood of the Earth" quest, 'cuz then they can short-cut the whole thing right there, but she doesn't fall for it, and they're exposed, and that's when we get Foul's 'Plan B', I guess.

Linden gets really pissed after the Blood of the Earth ploy, and so naturally she has to rescue Jerry, and she decides to awaken TC for real,  "find me".  LF has no problem with this, since he knows what's at stake.  They do meet resistance along the way, but this only causes Linden to galvanize her intention to raise TC.  Once he awakens, the Arch is up for grabs, and then it's about getting Jerry for himself.

The LCs are indeed more about hope and trust than concrete patterns.  Yeah, so what if LF wants TC risen.  Linden trusts TC will have an answer, or that they will find the help they need.  Good can come of it that outweighs the risk.   As it stands now, the Land is trapped and going nowhere, between LF, Ravers,   Kasty's Dirt, etc.  LF couldn't break out before with either war or surrender, and so now he needs to break out through a third possibility.  But Linden can't just let things stand on their own, something has to be done.  So she wakes TC, and sets things in motion.  Being  stagnant isn't helping anybody.  The Worm rises, Linden gets her deal with the Harrow and finds Jerry.  Yes, LF may have wanted this,  but so does Linden.   If he didn't try to block her along the way, she might not have had the passion to take these steps, so I think LF needs to sometimes egg her on, so to speak.  

So,  Jerry is freed, and then his mind is freed.  Yes that risks falling into LFs hands too, but it also risks a good result.  How can it be wrong to free your own son from bondage?   Through the shared sacrifice of others, Jerry can grow and mature, albeit perhaps slowly, and it can affect change in unexpected ways.  He builds his fane, and the Elohim discover they were wrong about him, they can trust him, and so also Linden.  Linden sought the greater good in her travels to the Forestall, thus the making of urMarthir, and his forbidding.   

And so the Worm comes, but the company has hope in unlocked for places, Brinn for instance.   LF doesn't have quite everything figured out.   It looks like he will get his way at every turn, since at every stage the world could end in desecration.  And indeed there is great calamity at the end, many die from the Worm's wrath.  But the Land had to be purged of the mass evil of LF, these cycles had to finally end.  Yes, SRD is indeed much more focused on the inner psychological struggle of human existence in these LCs.  We start by trying to fight back, then we surrender, and finally we have to accept our weaknesses, trust the help of others, and grow into something better because of it.  That is how you manage your dark side, "the last dark".  There will be sacrifices along the way, but it will be by choice.  Evil is always lurking, waiting for us to fail, laughing at the prospect of it, but we can't dwell on that, we make the choices and the effort nonetheless, and leave the rest to the Creator, and "we can't be blamed".