What was Tull's response...? (Spoiler for TPTP)

[Durris]

Please read this only if you've finished the first series.














I'm wondering how Tull responded to the Corruption of Korik et al. He was a recent Bloodguard recruit (or is that "novice"?) who did not have personal memory of the time of Kevin, and did have recent memory of the Westron Mountains and probably still-living kinfolk there. (I doubt seriously that those included a wife and children; I imagine that after the initial, unplanned, generation of the Vow, anyone who intended to be a Bloodguard would not marry beforehand, any more than future monks do in our society. Who would inflict on himself, by choice, elegiac memories like Korik's in Gilden-Fire?)

So Tull's experience of the Vow would have been less contaminated with doubt than that of the senior Bloodguard who had witnessed the Desecration. I wonder if he argued with Bannor about the relinquishment of service: "This isn't fair. I fully intended to keep the Vow as long again as you have heretofore. I was just getting started!"

On the other hand, Tull seems to have been a special protege' of Korik's, or at least specially respected by him for having shown skill at ritual combat disproportionate to his youth. Perhaps the sight of his commanding officer and mentor maimed and possessed was enough to destroy Tull's devotion too, even though it was closer to the Vow's original innocence than Bannor's was by this time.

After the end of the Vow was an accomplished fact, Tull, unlike his seniors, may have had to face personal disgrace in the eyes of those at home. To the current generation, the senior Bloodguard would have been people out of old stories, and their failure perhaps distanced by their epic stature and personal estrangement. But Tull would have seen the ruin of his personal hopes in the eyes of those he'd said farewell to before the Vow. So much for the Spartan mothers' injunction "Come back with your shield or on it," i.e., die before losing.

A few random thoughts; what are yours?

[Fist and Faith]

Wow! More fantastic thinking from you!!

I imagine that after the initial, unplanned, generation of the Vow, anyone who intended to be a Bloodguard would not marry beforehand, any more than future monks do in our society. Who would inflict on himself, by choice, elegiac memories like Korik's in Gilden-Fire?)

Interesting thought. Do you suppose the Vow created 500 Bloodguard, and 500 alternates? So if a Bloodguard died, and his body was returned to the Westron Mountains, he was replaced by an "official alternate"? (But not if his body was not returned.) And at the same time, if an alternate died, he was replaced by another alternate. (And I suppose an alternate would be replaced as he aged, and lost in the annual trials. )

...Tull's devotion too, even though it was closer to the Vow's original innocence than Bannor's was by this time.

Excellent point! The newer Bloodguard must have felt like they were dreaming! Walking with 2000 year old members of the original army, sparring with one of the original commanders! These legendary figures, these original Bloodguard who had not been back home since the night of the Vow. Tull must have been... I can't even figure out how to say how excited he must have been!

As for the main point of your post, that's a good question. Would it have been possible for the Vow to have happened if ALL of the 1000 Haruchai did not agree? Could there have been dissenters to either the forming or breaking of the Vow? If so, what if it was half and half? What would have prevented those who wanted to keep the Vow from doing so?

Durris!!

[Durris]

Fist & Faith wrote:

Would it have been possible for the Vow to have happened if ALL of the 1000 Haruchai did not agree?

Well, given the telepathic voltage that is described in Gilden-Fire for that night, perhaps not. Surely dissenting thoughts would have introduced a discord, or a weakening, into the melding of minds. And since half the thousand marched home in the morning (with what mixture of disappointment and relief? though the relief of the women who received them safe and sound several weeks later at 12,000 feet was surely unalloyed!), whoever didn't choose to serve could presumably have been among the 500 departing, without loss of honor.

I'm not sure about the remnant becoming 500 alternates; their lives would have been on hold indefinitely, waiting for each Ranyhyn with his/her sad burden to enter the village...

Fist & Faith wrote:

What would have prevented those who wanted to keep the Vow from doing so?

Peer pressure.

Seriously: any who wanted to keep the Vow are likely to have been younger, not personally burdened with Kevin-guilt. In whatever discussions/telepathic conclaves/ritual combats took place around the decision (that is, if the First Mark didn't make it on entirely his own initiative, poor soul), I imagine the seniors met their desire to continue with "Who are you to think you can be more devoted than us?"--or that the weight of despair spread telepathically until all "owned" it equally.

[Fist and Faith]

Would it have been possible for the Vow to have happened if ALL of the 1000 Haruchai did not agree?

Well, given the telepathic voltage that is described in Gilden-Fire for that night, perhaps not. Surely dissenting thoughts would have introduced a discord, or a weakening, into the melding of minds.

Exactly what I was thinking. Something of that magnitude, something that the Earthpower itself responded to so absolutely, must have been absolute in the minds of all 1000. Otherwise, if some were moved to do a Vow, but others just wanted to move on, the Earthpower wouldn't have noticed them.

And if ALL of them agreed about the creation of the Vow, then maybe all of them, even those new to the Vow, and even relatively new to life, agreed to end it. The Haruchai mindset is the Haruchai mindset, no matter what other factors are there. Ya think?

I'm not sure about the remnant becoming 500 alternates; their lives would have been on hold indefinitely, waiting for each Ranyhyn with his/her sad burden to enter the village...

But what would have happened if Foul had managed to wipe out the Bloodguard with a poison or disease that only affected Haruchai? If the Lords had then put them all onto their noble Ranyhyn, I've gotta believe that 500 replacements would have come along. That's the Vow. So either any male Haruchai could be chosen (or at least any of the best 500 fighters), or there were always 500 replacements ready to go, wifeless and waiting.

Seriously: any who wanted to keep the Vow are likely to have been younger, not personally burdened with Kevin-guilt. In whatever discussions/telepathic conclaves/ritual combats took place around the decision (that is, if the First Mark didn't make it on entirely his own initiative, poor soul), I imagine the seniors met their desire to continue with "Who are you to think you can be more devoted than us?"--or that the weight of despair spread telepathically until all "owned" it equally.

Yeah, I could see the originals talking the newer into it. They have a perspective that the new ones do not, and the new probably respect the olds' judgment.

[duchess of malfi]

Knowing the Haruchai, I am somewhat certain that they held a combat for each "opening" in the Bloodguard. Their high honor would have demanded no less than the best available fighter be sent to Revelstone and the Lords.

[Fist and Faith]

That's true, duchess. But I'm thinking of logistics. Maybe an annual trial, so they know who their top 500 are until the next year. Otherwise, each time a body came back, they'd have to spend MANY days figuring out who to send.

[duchess of malfi]

That could be quite likely. Perhaps an annual trial to figure out the top twenty or so men, then a new trial just between the champions to determine who would go...when you are talking about athletes of that caliber, they themselves would want another chance to take down those who finished before them...
I would hope, just in thinking about the pain Korrik and Bannor felt over their lost wives, that no prospective Bloodguard had wives... good question for SRD...
Perhaps they only allowed single men to compete for openings?

[Furls Fire]

Maybe we will get more insight into the Haruchai and Bloodgaurd in the Last Chrons. I would love to be taken into the Westron Mountains and meet some haruchai women

[duchess of malfi]

So would I. I bet they have every bit of the honor and maybe even more courage than their men.

[Fist and Faith]

Oh man!!!! To go to the mountains!!!! *droooooooool*

duchess, you mean like the courage the Spartan women had?

[duchess of malfi]

Exactly, Fist.
Actually, any Haruchai fans out there should read Pressfield's Gates of Fire. Remarkable book, and quite an exploration of war, honor, and courage.

[Fist and Faith]

That's my girl!!!

[Durris]

*bump* This may interest you, dlbpharmd (and Cail and Haruchai too)...

[Haruchai]

Yes, very interesting, thanks Durris!
I agree with the annual trials idea. They would of had to have several new recruits on hand, and they would want them to be the best to serve the Lords ( keep up a good Haruchai image )
I really hope we go to the Westron moutnains too.

[Warmark]

i always imagined that ALL the haruchia were as good as each other, and that they decided things on age

[dlbpharmd]

Not according to Gilden-fire.

[Warmark]

that is the main hole in my arguement
i have never read gildenfire

[dlbpharmd]

What?! You poor soul!

Like we've talked about before, you really should read it, particularly if you're a fan of the Haruchai.

[Warmark]

its on my 'to read' list along with around 10 others...