Again LM, what's your background with firearms and police procedures? They did exactly what they were trained to do. A week after a terrorist attack, the police are chasing a terror suspect who refuses to stop fleeing. What would you have them do? They were authorized to use deadly force, and they did. With 3 or 4 guys firing, 8 rounds comes out in a fraction of a second.
Let's say the guy wasn't innocent. Let's say the cops shot him once, then he turned around and detonated himself, killing 30 more people. That's what the cops were thinking, and they took measures to prevent it. My hat's off to them.
Political ramifications of London bombings
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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wayfriend
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... eventually...Cail wrote:That's what the cops were thinking, and they took measures to prevent it.
It's not how many times they shot him that's questionable. It's the way it fits with what happened prior to the shooting that is. If he was an urgent danger, why let him go so far? If he suddenly became an urgent danger, what changed?
.
I'd say that's why.Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.
www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/lon ... index.html
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
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Sindatur,
Yes. I can agree with that.
Cail,
Yes. I can agree with that.
Cail,
I suppose that for me, this is the crux of the matter. Have you seen sufficient evidence to label him as a "terror suspect"? What is suspicious clothing? And why was his behavior suspicious? Before he fled from the police I mean. What caused them to chase him in the first place?the police are chasing a terror suspect who refuses to stop fleeing.
From the link above.De Menezes on Friday left a south London apartment building that had been under surveillance as part of the investigation into Thursday's attempted bombings.
So he left the building, the police followed, told him to stop, he ran. If that's not suspicious, I don't know what is.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
The biggest thing about the clothing, is the Police say he had a "Big coat", which could hide a bomb. This is disputed by witnesses or by friends of the guy who was shot. This to me, is one of the big factors, if he did have this coat, and was fidgety, looking around paranoid, etc, coupled with the electrician's wire that was visible (leading more to believe it was a bomb), it's very easy to understand the impression.
If he didn't have the coat on, then things change, and I can't imagine a legitimate reason for shooting him while he was down (If he was already down when he was shot)
In actuality, in my mind, it doesn't matter if they got him in their sites because he looked like he might be an Arab, or any other profiling. What matters is, once they had him in their sites, he didn't cooperate, which makes him suspicious. He didn't get shot because he looked like he might have been Arab, even if they were watching him because of it.
If he didn't have the coat on, then things change, and I can't imagine a legitimate reason for shooting him while he was down (If he was already down when he was shot)
In actuality, in my mind, it doesn't matter if they got him in their sites because he looked like he might be an Arab, or any other profiling. What matters is, once they had him in their sites, he didn't cooperate, which makes him suspicious. He didn't get shot because he looked like he might have been Arab, even if they were watching him because of it.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
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wayfriend
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Let me make sure I understand what you are positing...Cail wrote:I'd say that's why.Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.
- When he got to the underground station, he changed into different clothing?
And then, even though he left a suspect flat, and repeatedly refused to halt for the police before getting to the station, when he got to the station, that's when he started acting suspiciously enough to shoot?
.
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Hmm, interesting posts folks, and some good points made all round. Cail's absolutely right about multiple shots being the correct procedure, and the reason they didn't stop once he was down was probably at least partly due to the adreneline.
Here's something though: In the UK police aren't usually armed. When they tell you to stop, it's not to ask you to prevent them from having to shoot at you. It's to ask you to prevent them having to chase you. In fact, chasing you with a truncheon is about the only choice they usually have. Running from the police is usually a good bet.
Wayfriend, I certainly agree that the articles don't give enough detail, and in a way, it's the "vagueness" that bothers me.
That said, I don't think it was deliberate or malicious, simply a stupid mistake, made by fearful people under stress. No doubt it won't be the last time either.
--A
Here's something though: In the UK police aren't usually armed. When they tell you to stop, it's not to ask you to prevent them from having to shoot at you. It's to ask you to prevent them having to chase you. In fact, chasing you with a truncheon is about the only choice they usually have. Running from the police is usually a good bet.
Wayfriend, I certainly agree that the articles don't give enough detail, and in a way, it's the "vagueness" that bothers me.
That said, I don't think it was deliberate or malicious, simply a stupid mistake, made by fearful people under stress. No doubt it won't be the last time either.
--A
I wish there was a picture of the man as he was running away from the police so we could see what kind of a "big coat" he had on. That would help immensely. Did he manage to evade all the security cameras that I assume the station had? You'd think that the police would have snapshots of him, if he was indeed under surveillance. 
Wow you're reaching. The article says nothing of the sort about his clothing being changed.Wayfriend wrote:
- When he got to the underground station, he changed into different clothing?
And then, even though he left a suspect flat, and repeatedly refused to halt for the police before getting to the station, when he got to the station, that's when he started acting suspiciously enough to shoot?
So, yes he did start acting more suspiciously at the station (not to mention that's what's being blown up). As someone else said, he was followed because of the surveilance, he was shot because he wasn't stopping like he (or anyone else) is supposed to when the police tell you to.Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.
He challenged police and refused to obey orders before he was shot and killed Friday morning, Blair said Friday.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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As you pointed out that stations are what's being blown up, I'm sure you actually know what WayFriend meant there about the clothes.
In the end, it comes down to the fact that the cops were doing what they were supposed to be doing. Unfortunately, they based their actions on an erroneous assumption, making the shooting inevitable.
Of course, does that mean that the next one will be too? Or have they learned an important lesson? Or, as I asked before, does this one innocent count as an "acceptable loss"? Like I siad, I'm sure it was simply a mistake. But that's not much consolation for the family now, is it?
--A
In the end, it comes down to the fact that the cops were doing what they were supposed to be doing. Unfortunately, they based their actions on an erroneous assumption, making the shooting inevitable.
Of course, does that mean that the next one will be too? Or have they learned an important lesson? Or, as I asked before, does this one innocent count as an "acceptable loss"? Like I siad, I'm sure it was simply a mistake. But that's not much consolation for the family now, is it?
--A
It's no consolation for the family, but by the same token, it's nobody's fault but his own that he got shot. When the police tell you to stop, you stop, or you face the consequences.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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I can say "Fair enough" to that, while pointing out that, as I said earlier, in the UK at least, the consequences do not usually involve dying.
Was he aware that they were armed? Did they fire a warning shot while in pursuit? Too much we don't know.
(Not to mention the fact that people are, when it comes to the question of terrorism, perhaps rightly dubious of the "impartiality" of the police, and the "safety" that supposedly lies in innocence.)
--A
Was he aware that they were armed? Did they fire a warning shot while in pursuit? Too much we don't know.
(Not to mention the fact that people are, when it comes to the question of terrorism, perhaps rightly dubious of the "impartiality" of the police, and the "safety" that supposedly lies in innocence.)
--A
Think about that Av.
They're in a crowded Tube, would you want the cops squeezing off a "warning shot"?
The guy may be potentially carrying an explosive device, do you want to fire a "warning shot" so he has time to detonate, or do you want to put him down so he doesn't harm others?
Bystanders have said that the police had their guns drawn. I'd imagine the guy looked over his shoulder at least once during the chase, so I'd guess he knew they were armed.
Look, we as a society have agreed on certain societal norms and rules. One of those is that you do as the police ask and you don't run from them. As tragic as this incident is, this man broke the rules and paid the price.
They're in a crowded Tube, would you want the cops squeezing off a "warning shot"?
The guy may be potentially carrying an explosive device, do you want to fire a "warning shot" so he has time to detonate, or do you want to put him down so he doesn't harm others?
Bystanders have said that the police had their guns drawn. I'd imagine the guy looked over his shoulder at least once during the chase, so I'd guess he knew they were armed.
Look, we as a society have agreed on certain societal norms and rules. One of those is that you do as the police ask and you don't run from them. As tragic as this incident is, this man broke the rules and paid the price.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Avatar
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Good points, and to be honest, all ones I thought of while making my post. 
As I've already said, I essentially agree with you. I don't like it, but that doesn't make anything you say less true. In the current climate especially, with plenty of fear, this is going to happen.
Perhaps the majority of my dislike for the incident springs from my own inherent distrust of the police.
--Avatar
Heh. I can't say I blame you, but in this specific case, I think they were acting in the public's best interests.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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wayfriend
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(OT:
Wow, you're quoting out of context. (Full quote: "Let me make sure I understand what you are positing... When he got to the underground station, he changed into different clothing?") I cannot help but notice how you use that technique to disparage an opinion. I assume that a approach involving integrity and logic was not available?)Cail wrote:Wow you're reaching.Wayfriend wrote:
- When he got to the underground station, he changed into different clothing?
.
Jesus, here you go again. What's out of context? I quoted your entire post.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Avatar, while I can see your point about Brits not being accustomed to their Police Officers carrying guns, and they know they used to be able to just run, doesn't that show an incredible lack of respect for the authority of the Police? And isn't allowing that to be used as a defense for the suspect, and against the Police, dangerous? Maybe it's because I am accustomed to them carrying guns, but, I don't think you can allow that kind of disrespect for Law Enforcement, enforcing laws to be a defense, without sinking into Anarchy (And I mean the "Law of the Jungle type", not the "benevolent" type you hope for)
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
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Well, maybe it does show a lack of respect for the cops, but then, I have a different viewpoint entirely, coming from a country where several thousand policemen are on active duty, while under investigation for corruption, misuse of authority etc. (This is not to say that I wouldn't stop under those circumstances, our cops carry guns too of course. )I certainly agree that, from that perspective, you're right. It shouldn't be a defense. But I can't help sympathising I guess.
Cail -- I think WayFriend is referring to the fact that you didn't quote the bit that said
And he's right. That's that "vagueness" I was talking about. I think the statement WayFriend made was taken (deliberately) from the poor wording of the article, which (no doubt deliberately) left it unclear and open to different interpretations.Ok, that's rhetorical. I just want to demonstrate how completely that article fails to offer a reasonable justification.
--A