Elena coming on to Thomas

[jonnyredleader]

Ah poor Kevin, I had huge sympathy and never quite understood peoples view of him as bad, when I was younger I couldn't see he had much choice. But on rereading later in life the lands inhabitants do have sympathy and an understanding that it is so easy to fall into despair when what you love is being destroyed with little hope of saving.
The oath of peace was about never giving into that despair and to resist until the last, not taking on the responsibility of saving the world but fighting for what you believed in, Foul got Kevin to destroy what he loved himself. Who knows what may have happened at the last moment had Kevin resisted until the bitter end.

[Holsety]

Ah poor Kevin, I had huge sympathy and never quite understood peoples view of him as bad, when I was younger I couldn't see he had much choice. But on rereading later in life the lands inhabitants do have sympathy and an understanding that it is so easy to fall into despair when what you love is being destroyed with little hope of saving.
The oath of peace was about never giving into that despair and to resist until the last, not taking on the responsibility of saving the world but fighting for what you believed in, Foul got Kevin to destroy what he loved himself. Who knows what may have happened at the last moment had Kevin resisted until the bitter end.

I can't argue with you completely. But at the same time, there is even room for surrender to bring forth hope: Berek Halfhand's despair when he realized he struggled alone against the endarkened forces of the King and his flight to the foot of Gravin Threndor brought forth the fire lions and, if I am not mistaken, the beginnings of earth-friendship in The Land. When all is said and done, I can't really condemn Kevin for what he did: it was definitely the work of a man who was in the depths of despair, but even in the face of all the beauty of The Land, when faced with reality despair may be the natural, inevitable tendency. Who can really judge? I agree that fighting on anyway seems to be Donaldson's answer - not only in the actions of the inhabitants of The Land, but in Covenant himself, who confronted his leprosy with full cognizance as a kind of death and resolved to live, because dying was too easy. Perhaps that is why it seems as though, before being summoned by Drool Rockworm, the beggar seemed to acknowledge him as a champion.

But we are getting far afield from Elena...

[jonnyredleader]

Very true! Good discussion though!
Back to Elena coming onto covenant....

[bikebryan]

I never quite understood why everyone was so unforgiving of Kevin Landwaster. He made a mistake sure, in assuming that by destrying the Land (or part of it) that he would get Foul into the bargin, but it was done with the best of intentions. He saved the Bloodguard, the Ramen, the Ranhyn, the people of the Land - the others he knew could fend for themselves ie waynhim etc. He bought them what, 2000 years of peace and prosperity before Foul sent his message to the Council via Drool and Covenant. And at the end of the day the idea wasn't that bad - hell, they stop your heart with those electric things if you're having a heart attack in the hope that when it starts back up it will find its rythem again. Surely what he did was along the same lines?

I know, but I just wanted to say.

Kevin didn't buy 2000 years of prosperity. It took most of that time for the Land to recover, and even then it was only a former shade of what it was before the Ritual of Desecration. Even after all that time, Trothguard still was suffering horribly until after the Lords found and began to try and interpret Kevin's Second Ward.

He may have bought them SOME time, but certainly not 2000 years of peace and prosperity. I would say maybe a few hundred years of that, at best.

[peter]

1. Fouls intent was release from the imprisonment imposed on him by the arch of time, not the destruction of the Land which was incidental to his main plan.

2. The Land was not destroyed. Reduced - yes. Hurt - absolutely. but destroyed - no. many wars have used this ploy of reduce and hurt, but not destroy in order to excise an evil - take the bombing of Japan at the end of WWII. Doesn't make it good but it can work.

What is the difference between what Kevin did and what Brin did in his fight with the guardian of the Isle. Both alowed themselves to be killed in pursuit of a bigger goal. Yet Brin is revered and Kevin reviled.


(So sorry for going off topic guys - could a mod take this stuff out and make a new thread?)

[shadowbinding shoe]

So semi-back to topic.

In the later Chronicles Covenant and Linden each see the spirit of dead Elena.

Covenant's sees her as a beautiful woman but

Spoiler

Linden's sees her ravaged by the breaking of a Law.

Which is the truer vision?

[jonnyredleader]

Ooo got to be careful of spoilers here, I think that answer is much closer to the end of the chronicles as first time linden sees Elena she is still beautiful although very sensitive as she vanishes when linden accuses her of arrogance because she believes she still loves covenant despite leading him along with mhoram, bannor and faomfollower into giving up the ring to foul.

With regards to Kevin though, it's his act of destroying what he loves and giving into despair completely that villifies him, but I and everyone else recognise that in his place we'd probably do the same. I also believe that of Elenas mistake had we been given the power of command, it was all doomed till covenant decided to deal with it. All paths but his were temporary victories at best.

[Orlion]

(So sorry for going off topic guys - could a mod take this stuff out and make a new thread?)

NEVER!!!

Maybe a little later when I got more time, in the meantime here's as good a place as any.

That's a very good question shoe, and not getting into spoiler territory because I don't want to use tags (I'm lazy today ) I think Donaldson answered that question somewhat on the GI. Essentially, it boils down to Elena did not want to put any more guilt on Covenant. Also, I'd agree with what Johnny says, that things change towards the end of the Second Chronicles. Elena had still not witness the extent here Command has reached... the Law of Life was still unbroken or recently broken.

[peter]

Was it just wrong point blank that they got to the Earthblood and hence the power of Command - or was it just the God awful mess that Elena made of using it that was bad?

[shadowbinding shoe]

Was it just wrong point blank that they got to the Earthblood and hence the power of Command - or was it just the God awful mess that Elena made of using it that was bad?

Doesn't Donaldson state numerous times that in the Land's world the Laws are mutable because the Creator intended his creation to be life-like and therefore able to change and grow?

The unchanging are almost all portrayed negatively: the Elohim, the Haruchai with their perfect group-mind memory, the Ravers with their fear of Death and their enduring hatred of all things healthy and of course Lord Foul himself with his never-ending despite.

Change gives opportunity for Evil to influence things but it also gives opportunity for Good to flourish and transcend previous limitations.

The Laws are in the end strictures placed on the Creation. Like a child that grows and become a free agent, the Land's world gradually becomes more proactive and self-censuring in its decisions as the Chronicles progress. Where in the past the Dead were barred by a Law from interfering in the affairs of the Living, now they do so by choice. Thus greater meaning is given to their existence and more discerning decision making is made possible. The dead (as long as they retain their free choice) only act for the betterment of their world. They do not selfishly try to steal from the living Life or Meaning.

Elena recognized a flaw in the Land of her times. The people were bereft of their past by Kevin's actions. Living memory failed them. Only partial understanding could be gleamed from Kevin's wards and the Unfettered insights. Her mistake was in not going far enough. She enabled actions but not choice by commanding Kevin against his will to defeat Foul. The mistake, I think, stemmed from an egocentric view of the World: she assumed that Kevin's wishes would be identical to her own.

This mistake was corrected at the end of the Second Chronicles.

We see throughout the Chronicles breaking of Laws but I think it's pretty clear that erection of Laws is equally possible. It even seem to happen a few times: The vow of the Bloodguard, the Oath of Peace, Gorgon's doom, Covenant role as a time-warden, these are all new Laws people within the Land's world created with their commitment and power. And yet, when the opportunity arose, they did not choose to recreate the Law of Dead and return to a bygone past but instead completed Elena's deed and broke the Law of Life as well.

[jonnyredleader]

Yeah what shoe said. Haha
That's a very deep view, if I were going to be controversial or play devils advocate I think it's much simpler and yet more complicated.
It was a bad thing and a good thing,
Bad in as much that Kevin himself never used this almost limitless yet limited power because, it all about paradoxes remember, the unforeseen consequences of such power could always deliver a worse situation than the one you had tried to solve. Elena thought Kevin, as the most lorewise and powerful lord of all time, had the power, wisdom and experience to tackle foul. She was wrong, foul had the illearth stone and easily bested the poor dead lord.
But she was right also, the longterm consequences of her actions resulted in the bringing back of covenant and set of the chain reaction that led to the current situation, not to mention covenants commitment to act which happened at the moment of Elenas downfall.
To Elena she feels she is still the architect of the lands destruction through breaking and making possible further breaking of laws but we have not seen the ultimate end of those actions.
Good can come of bad action as much as bad can come of good action, but ultimately she was presented a situation she could not be prepared to deal with and yet act as high lord she had to, foul and covenant to a large extent were the real causes of all these actions