Insanity of the Left

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Post by SoulBiter »

Zarathustra wrote:The cops were right to give the guy a sobriety test. Drinking and driving is illegal, and a dangerous threat to others, despite how he was found parked. He drove there, and would likely have driven away. He deserved to be arrested. Calling him an Uber is a strange suggestion.

However, he did not deserve to be shot. A taser isn't a deadly weapon. That's the whole point of tasers.
Here is why I suggest that. What is the point to the arrest? To get him off the road so he is not a danger to others. They have his licence, they have his car, he took the sobriety test and failed. You have more than enough to charge him without having to take him to the drunk tank, where by the way you will need to post bail/bond to get out. Things didn't go sideways until AFTER they tried to cuff him.

But they were following the procedure as it is written today. So what could they have done differently? I am really not sure. In the heat of the moment when a suspect turns with a weapon and fires it at you. What is your choice? Dive for cover and let him run? Z has it right in that if you allow yourself to be tased, then he can take your service revolver. If you allow him to run off, he is a possible danger to himself and others. There were no good choices to be had but I do think they selected the worst of the choices offered.

That is why I am all for re-thinking how we "police". In this same scenario, what if instead of a trip to jail you are offered a ride home. We will send your summons to you. The only thing you are taking out of the equation is handcuffs and a trip to jail. You are still charged with the crime. You still have to show up on your court date. Your car is still impounded.
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Post by Zarathustra »

So because a few people resist arrest, we need to get rid of arresting? That makes no sense. Yes, I know you're not saying get rid of arrests in general, just for certain things. But we're going to have the same problem, as long as people are resisting arrest.

The problem isn't arresting people. Society depends upon law and order. We can't allow society to crumble into chaos because some people break the law and then don't like the consequences when they do so. You don't get to run away, or attack the cops, when you get arrested, just because of your skin color.

Racism is being used as an excuse to cede ground to criminals, to forego law and order in order to soothe people's feelings. This is a recipe for the downfall of society. This guy didn't get killed because he was black. He got killed because he stole a cop's weapon and then tried to use it on him. In a sane, rational, mature conversation, we'd all admit this is true. But we're having an immature, irrational, hysterical conversation (on the national level, not here). When did it become okay to defend dangerous criminals who attack cops? A drunk driver is a dangerous criminal. Stealing and attempting to use a taser is attacking a cop. These are just facts. Emotion is clouding the issue. I am not going to be intimidated into changing my mind because the other side is burning down a Wendys (and attacked the CNN news crew that was trying to film their lawlessness).
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Zarathustra wrote:So because a few people resist arrest, we need to get rid of arresting? That makes no sense. Yes, I know you're not saying get rid of arrests in general, just for certain things. But we're going to have the same problem, as long as people are resisting arrest.

The problem isn't arresting people. Society depends upon law and order. We can't allow society to crumble into chaos because some people break the law and then don't like the consequences when they do so. You don't get to run away, or attack the cops, when you get arrested, just because of your skin color.

Racism is being used as an excuse to cede ground to criminals, to forego law and order in order to soothe people's feelings. This is a recipe for the downfall of society. This guy didn't get killed because he was black. He got killed because he stole a cop's weapon and then tried to use it on him. In a sane, rational, mature conversation, we'd all admit this is true. But we're having an immature, irrational, hysterical conversation (on the national level, not here). When did it become okay to defend dangerous criminals who attack cops? A drunk driver is a dangerous criminal. Stealing and attempting to use a taser is attacking a cop. These are just facts. Emotion is clouding the issue. I am not going to be intimidated into changing my mind because the other side is burning down a Wendys (and attacked the CNN news crew that was trying to film their lawlessness).
Yes and no... or agree and disagree.. LOL

So I agree that people need to follow the law and we cant adjust the law on the fly each day based on the situation. This was not a race situation. Once he started fighting the officers and assaulted an officer, the situation had escalated to something different. When he took the officers tazer, it escalated more. That was all on him, not on the officers.

I also, after having watched that video a number of times from various angles, think the officers acted in the only manner left to them. They pulled the trigger, but from the moment the suspect turned and made to shoot back at the officers, he had made a decision that cost him his life and they had no choice but to pull the trigger and shoot him. The suspect made that decision. The Mayor is wrong and the Chief of Police is wrong. They might be sacrificed on the alter of racism but if so, it will be a miscarriage of justice.

What I was getting at was less to do with this EXACT crime and more to do with re-thinking how we deal with these situations in general. Is there a better alternative to what we do? How can we improve in these situations that make the most sense and still have the safety we are looking for.

So for DUI, if there is an alternative to having to put someone in the back of the police car in cuffs and take them to jail, why dont we? I would think for any non-violent, non-felony offense, we should think through some of these. I had a DUI 30 years ago. It was a non issue because I didnt fight the cops, there was no such thing as uber and we didnt have cell phones. So things are different now. It made sense to take me to jail for my safety and for the safety of others, then. Today, does that make sense? It would cost me and the Police less if they just give me the sobriety test, breathalizer and all. Impound my car, write me a ticket, call me an uber.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I think that the threat of getting arrested is a deterrent to drunk driving. If people think that the worst they'll get is a free Uber ride and a ticket, more people will drive drunk.

The motivation here is all wrong. We want to decrease consequences for a crime that kills 1000s in order to save the lives of a handful who resist arrest and/or attack police? It makes no sense.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Zarathustra wrote:I think that the threat of getting arrested is a deterrent to drunk driving. If people think that the worst they'll get is a free Uber ride and a ticket, more people will drive drunk.

The motivation here is all wrong. We want to decrease consequences for a crime that kills 1000s in order to save the lives of a handful who resist arrest and/or attack police? It makes no sense.
You must have never been stupid enough to get a DUI. The trip to jail is an inconvenience. You spend the night in the drunk tank until someone bonds you out. You go home with a ticket and a hangover. You do have to pay to get your car out of impound. Life goes on until your court date.

Chances are you will be found guilty. Better get a lawyer unless you want the book thrown at you. ($2K to $5K)

Even with a lawyer you will still deal with the below unless he gets it thrown out on some technicality or as a first offense the Judge accepts a Nolo plea and you get a lesser sentence. If it is more than a first offense, all the below is multiplied.

You will lose your drivers licence for a year.
You will pay a fine, the cost of which depends on your State.
You will have to go to DUI school
You will be on probation and have to show up weekly ($25 each time)
They will test you for sobriety each time.
You might lose your job depending on what your job is
You have to find a way to get everywhere because you have no licence and yes that means your job as well.
You will have to do community service.
Your insurance went up considerably because you are now a risk.

No the real pain is after your court date.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Perhaps it is time to revisit my tranq dart idea. Instead of tasers, make the first weapon a tranq dart--unruly suspect > tranq them > wait for the sedative to kick in > deal with the sleeping suspect > call an EMT to make sure they are still breathing. Simple. They will wake up in jail a few hours later and wonder what happened; meanwhile, no one got hurt.

Some UT students are a little upset that one of the foundations of the school's song, "The Eyes of Texas", has it roots in minstrel shows, which typically featured blackface performers. The song itself was written in 1903 but the tune was based on 1894's "I've Been Working on the Railroad". Minstrel shows themselves were in decline at the turn of that century where as traditional Vaudeville was on the rise. Even the people expressing a little upset feelings about the origin of the song state that the lyrics themselves have absolutely nothing to do with race whatsoever.

Anyway, the point is this: if these students, or protesters in general, are going to get upset about songs which have their basis in minstrel shows then they are going to have to say goodbye to a lot of music. The musical elements of many songs from the minstrel shows translated into both gospel and blues, both of which gave birth to rock-and-roll and every musical genre since that time (no new musical genres have been invented since at least the 60s, with the exception of things like "synthwave" and its associated sub-genres).

Incidentally, when the protesters state that the United States is tainted at the source and that all success is based on slavery, they automatically state that every successful black person, whether entertainer, businessperson, athlete, or politician, has their success based on slavery. That is why "poisoning the well" is considered to be a logical fallacy.
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Post by SoulBiter »

More insanity.


So a couple of things hit my news feed this morning.

First, the council in Cincinnati is calling for the removal of a statue of William Henry Harrison. 9th President of the United States. Harrison was a slave owner but never owned slaves while he was President. He fought in the Union army and led battles against the Confederacy. He died early in Presidency from Pneumonia. The fact that they are calling for the purging of these tells me that it will not be long before it is Jefferson, Washington, Ben Franklin, and many others that were also slave owners in that period of time in History.

Second, an actual confederate flag (not the battle flag) was found flying over a Public school baseball field in VA. Police have been notified and will start an investigation to find out who these fiends are LOL. If its students it wouldn't surprise me to see them expelled from the school. My question is, when were the police and investigators notified to find who damaged and defaced monuments across the USA? We have video that clearly shows who they are. Where are the mass arrests for people that are breaking the law?

IMHO we have now decided what laws can be broken and which cant and have literally thrown "Rule of law" out the window. I am literally scared for the country that I am leaving my children and grandchildren. When we throw "Rule of law" out of the window, we become no better than a third world country, where anarchy reins.
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Post by TheFallen »

As there seems to be a fanaticism for the expunging of history and the tearing down of statues of anyone connected with slave ownership...

...I have to ask once more, when do we expect to see the entire left hand half of the Mount Rushmore National Memorial dynamited off?

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I mean, apart from scale, what's the teensiest logical difference between Mount Rushmore and the various statues that some are calling so stringently for the tearing down of? In fact, given scale, why isn't Mount Rushmore being considered as even more offensive? On that basis of scale, doesn't it revere and/or celebrate Washington and Jefferson more than any other rendition? After all, it's a "national memorial", FFS.

And for that matter, when do Washington State, Washington DC, Jefferson City and their like get renamed as part of a continuing paroxysm of woke zealotry?
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Post by SoulBiter »

Thats a good call out TF. However it will be the one below that will be blown off the side of a mountain first. That will set the precedent to then destroy the carvings on Mount Rushmore.

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Post by SoulBiter »

I am glad that CHAZ is so peaceful. The video below is what anarchy and lawlessness looks like.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1272423863402426370
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Remember the good old days from a few years ago when the IS was destroying monuments of history because they were "blasphemous"? How about the good old days from 1930s Germany when rallies were held so people could tear down statues or burn books which contained ideas with which they vehemently disagreed?

The targets of the BLM's outrage will ultimately include anyone who does not agree with their ideological purity, including other black people. If you think there are monuments they may overlook you are mistaken--they have already identified every monument they want to target. for now, probably including some of which we here are unaware, and plans of attack are already being formulated against those sites. At this time, corporate America is safe because they are pandering to the BLM (mostly so they won't be the subject of riots and looting) but eventually the BLM will come after those corporations. Just like with the "defund the police" movement they will begin to demand tribute from these corportations in the form of "community needs"--fail to pay and be looted.

The CHAZ/CHOP thing....that is only a prototype. The organizers are figuring out what is working--and what isn't, hence the name change (better brandng)--so that they can spread the idea to other cities. The implementation is quite easy--find a city with a wavering morale, take over one police station, and decalre an "occupied cop-free zone".

I am still concerned that it will end like Tianenmen.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Aunt Jemima has fallen victim to the PC police. Apparently she is a racial sterotype, although her history is a real person who dressed exactly as the bottle shows her.

The Native American girl on Land o' Lakes has been removed. Also racial sterotyping.

You know what really ticks me off though? Its not these images. Its the fact that somewhere along the line 5lbs of sugar became 4lbs of sugar and 16oz of bacon became 12oz of bacon. Now thats something to be pissed off about.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I just happened to read an article about Aunt Jemima. Apparently, they've already changed it in the past, for the same reason

Not happy about the LoL. Can't do the trick with the knees any longer?!? I guess that was racist against Native Americans AND objectifying women at the same time. Still funny, though.

But yes, definitely agree about the 4lb bags of sugar! WTF?!
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Fist and Faith wrote:I just happened to read an article about Aunt Jemima. Apparently, they've already changed it in the past, for the same reason
I remember when she used to wear a kerchief around her hair; I think they removed that in the 90s but I don't recall exactly when. Go buy a couple of bottles of it now, leave them full of syrup, then vacuum seal them and put them in storage. In 20 years they will be worth $500 each.

The Land O Lakes Maiden is still on cartons of half-and-half--I know this for a fact because I checked them tonight.

When the "we must remove history" people run out of Founding Father and Confederate things to remove, they will move on to Jim Crow-era statues and politicians, then they will start in on any politician or figure who did not stand for everything they stand for now.
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Post by Avatar »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Perhaps it is time to revisit my tranq dart idea.
Charming as the idea is, (and I'm not opposed to it in principle at all), the practical problem is that tranquilising people is both difficult and dangerous.

Dosages need to be calculated for each person on a weight basis (and some other factors) and the wrong dosage can easily kill somebody, or have no effect at all. It's just not practical.

But yes, as I was saying in the other thread, cops need some options other than "let go or kill."

(Training...I haven't watched the video, but why was the criminal in a position to grab the officer's taser? You shouldn't be giving that opportunity.)

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Post by sgt.null »

Avatar - have you ever had to restrain
Someone to cuff them?

They let me play the criminal in a scenario
In school one year. A lieutenant and a sergeant
Were tasked with escorting me. I talked them
Into cuffing me in the front. I was told to resist.
I threw one into the wall and had the second on
The ground in seconds, about to stomp on him
When told to stop. These were two experienced
Officers and I wasn't particularly trying hard.

I believe it was Mike Tyson who said everyone has
A plan until they get punched in the face.
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Post by Avatar »

True enough, but surely you're not saying that officers are not trained in weapon retention techniques? Or that they're not required to have all weapons secured in retention holsters etc?

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Post by sgt.null »

Avatar - training can not prepare you for everything.
Let's see what the toxicology report states. There
Will be times that no matter what you do the criminal
Will get the upper hand. That's why you have more
Than one option. We have inmates who can fight through
Being pepper sprayed.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

CHOP is full of people who would probably agree that building border walls is wrong....

...until they built their wall around CHOP, which is now up to 9 blocks--another precinct surrendered.

CHOP is full of people who typically argue that citizens should not have guns...

...except for the guards and patrols they have in CHOP, all of whom are armed.

CHOP is full of people who oppose capitalism...

...but they accept monetary donations and probably have GoFundMe pages so people can send them money.

In other words, CHOP is full of hypocrites. Their protest has absoluately nothing to do with race or BLM whatsoever. Theirs is a sociopolitical protest--they are fighting against capitalism and being a republic.

*************

Protesters in other areas have knocked down statues of Ulysses S. Grant--you know, the Union General who was later POTUS. It is a matter of historical record that Grant was gifted a slave in the 1850s but he freed that person and then later enforced the Emancipation Proclamation, but apparently the fact that he was connected to the Civil War at all is sufficient for protesters to knock down his statue. I told you--they won't be satisfied until every statue of every person they even think is connected to slavery has been removed. Oh...and to tell you the mindset of the people doing this crap, they spray-painted "1619" on the statue--yes, in reference to that poorly-researched and extremely biased NYT article.

They also knocked over a statue of Juniperro Serra, a Catholic missionary who was later declared a saint. Truthfully, I have no idea why they knocked over his statue, but they may not be certan why either, other than "those old people were all racists".

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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

San Francisco archbishop, Spanish embassy criticize toppling of Junipero Serra statue
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Park police and neighboring residents survey the damage in Golden Gate Park, Saturday, June 20, 2020, after statues of Junipero Serra, U.S. Grant and Francis Scott Key were toppled and graffiti was spray painted over many walls and pedestals. (Credit: Karl Mondon/Bay Area News Group via AP)


SAN FRANCISCO -- San Francisco Archbishop Salvadore Cordileone criticized the pulling down of the Junipero Serra statue in Golden Gate Park.

"What is happening to our society? A renewed national movement to heal memories and correct the injustices of racism and police brutality in our country has been hijacked by some into a movement of violence, looting and vandalism," he said in a statement Saturday night.

Serra was an 18th century Catholic priest who founded nine of California's 21 Spanish missions and is credited with bringing Catholicism to the Western United States.

Serra is accused of forcing Native Americans to stay at those missions after they were converted or face brutal punishment. His statues have been defaced in California for several years by people who claim he destroyed tribes and their culture.

However, Cordileone said Serra made heroic sacrifices to protect the indigenous people of California from their Spanish conquerors, especially the soldiers.

"Even with his infirmed leg which caused him such pain, he walked all the way to Mexico City to obtain special faculties of governance from the Viceroy of Spain in order to discipline the military who were abusing the Indians. And then he walked back to California. And lest there be any doubt, we have a physical reminder to this day: everywhere there is a presidio (soldiers' barracks) associated with a mission in the chain of 21 missions that he founded, the presidio is miles away from the mission itself and the school. St. Junipero Serra also offered them the best thing he had: The knowledge and love of Jesus Christ, which he and his fellow Franciscan friars did through education, health care, and training in the agrarian arts," the archbishop said.


Embassy of Spain USA @SpainInTheUSA | Twitter
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"All of this is not to deny that historical wrongs have occurred, even by people of good will, and healing of memories and reparation is much needed. But just as historical wrongs cannot be righted by keeping them hidden, neither can they be righted by re-writing the history. Anger against injustice can be a healthy response when it is that righteous indignation which moves a society forward. But as Christ himself teaches, and St. Francis modeled, love and not rage is the only answer," Cordileone continued.

[...]

The Spanish embassy to the United States also weighed in on the destruction of the Serra statue, as well as the vandalism of a bust of writer Miguel de Cervantes.

"We deeply regret the destruction of the statue of Saint Junipero Serra in San Francisco today, and would like to offer a reminder of his great efforts in support of indigenous communities," the embassy tweeted.

"It is also with great regret that we receive the news of the damages inflicted upon the bust of Miguel de Cervantes, who was himself held as a slave in Algiers for 5 years, and whose literature serves as a call for freedom and equality," it added in another tweet.

"Defending the Spanish legacy in the U.S. is a priority of our foreign policy in this country, and we will continue to do so by intensifying our educational efforts in order for the reality of our shared history to be better known and understood," the embassy continued. "We are also expressing our deep concern regarding these attacks to federal, state, and local authorities, asking that the memory of our rich shared history be protected, always with the utmost respect for the debates currently taking place."


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