Insanity of the Left

[Gaius Octavius]

Umbrella Man linked to far-right. Set fire to Minneapolis Auto Zone in order to sow racial tensions

"Boogaloo Bois" and Proud Boys participating in rioting in George Floyd protests

Proud Boys and the "boogaloo" movement are both right-wing. The former is just as violent as Antifa and frequently likes to get in fist fights with Antifa members. The "boogaloo" movement is composed of people who want to instigate a second civil war. Neo-Nazi members of the boogaloo movement want to destroy the American republic and create an ethnostate, either by forceful relocation of non-whites or ethnic cleansing.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Umbrella Man linked to far-right. Set fire to Minneapolis Auto Zone in order to sow racial tensions

"Boogaloo Bois" and Proud Boys participating in rioting in George Floyd protests

Proud Boys and the "boogaloo" movement are both right-wing. The former is just as violent as Antifa and frequently likes to get in fist fights with Antifa members. The "boogaloo" movement is composed of people who want to instigate a second civil war. Neo-Nazi members of the boogaloo movement want to destroy the American republic and create an ethnostate, either by forceful relocation of non-whites or ethnic cleansing.

I take it you didn't read your links. I already mentioned "Unbrella Man". 1 guy, 1 incident. Your BBC link doesn't do anything other than explain who these groups are.

What city have the Proud Boys taken over? Which statues have they toppled? What businesses have they destroyed? Those groups have done nothing remotely analogous to what Antifa and the 'peaceful protesters' have done in the last 6 months.

I'm not defending their ideology, but I am defending their right to exist, and to express their views.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

A second civil war is what the "autonomous zone" and "defund the police" movements are pushing. CHAZ/CHOP was de facto secession--they were literally claiming that they were not part of the United States.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Nano, here's an example of how it should work.

Cliven Bundy took issue with the BLM over whether land belonged to him or the government. He fought them in court. He staged a sit-in. People with guns showed up. Government agents with guns showed up. There were no riots, and no one was killed.

Bundy continued to fight via legal channels, and just this week the case against him was dismissed.

See the difference?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Cliven Bundy took issue with the BLM over whether land belonged to him or the government. He fought them in court. He staged a sit-in. People with guns showed up. Government agents with guns showed up. There were no riots, and no one was killed.

We had an entire thread on that issue. Still, I should remind everyone that the the BLM mentioned here is the Bureau of Land Management, not the other acronym.

For years, the Left ridiculued the Right because sometimes a random person would mention "secession" as a way to redress the wrongs the government commits. Lo and behold, the Left actually went and did it, at least at the city level.

Anyway, there will always be lone actors seeking to stir the pot and light the fuse. We do not paint people based on the statistical outliers in their group. The reason the Left get so much crap here is because even the people who claim to be "centrist" continue to express their support for and approval of their fringe members.

[Savor Dam]

Cliven Bundy took issue with the BLM over whether land belonged to him or the government. He fought them in court. He staged a sit-in. People with guns showed up. Government agents with guns showed up. There were no riots, and no one was killed.

No one was killed? Does the name Robert LaVoy Finicum ring any bells?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Cliven Bundy took issue with the BLM over whether land belonged to him or the government. He fought them in court. He staged a sit-in. People with guns showed up. Government agents with guns showed up. There were no riots, and no one was killed.

No one was killed? Does the name Robert LaVoy Finicum ring any bells?

No one was killed bystanders the protesters. Our militarized police killed someone.

Not exactly the same thing, is it?

[Savor Dam]

Not what you originally said. Who other than the "government agents with guns" would have killed Tarp Man?

Obvious goalpost shifting is obvious.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Not necessarily moving the goalposts, merely a slight misstatement. The Bundy protesters did not kill anyone and they never stated that they were someone separate from the United States, which CHAZ did claim.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Not what you originally said. Who other than the "government agents with guns" would have killed Tarp Man?

Obvious goalpost shifting is obvious.

You're not understanding me. The Antifa rioters have injured people, killed people, destroyed public and private property, and disrupted the lives of thousands.

The conservative protesters have done none of the above.

Obvious straw-grasping is obvious.

[Skyweir]

Umbrella Man linked to far-right. Set fire to Minneapolis Auto Zone in order to sow racial tensions

"Boogaloo Bois" and Proud Boys participating in rioting in George Floyd protests

Proud Boys and the "boogaloo" movement are both right-wing. The former is just as violent as Antifa and frequently likes to get in fist fights with Antifa members. The "boogaloo" movement is composed of people who want to instigate a second civil war. Neo-Nazi members of the boogaloo movement want to destroy the American republic and create an ethnostate, either by forceful relocation of non-whites or ethnic cleansing.

I take it you didn't read your links. I already mentioned "Unbrella Man". 1 guy, 1 incident. Your BBC link doesn't do anything other than explain who these groups are.

What city have the Proud Boys taken over? Which statues have they toppled? What businesses have they destroyed? Those groups have done nothing remotely analogous to what Antifa and the 'peaceful protesters' have done in the last 6 months.

I'm not defending their ideology, but I am defending their right to exist, and to express their views.

You seem to be raising a number of false equivalencies

What city has antifa taken over? And who are antifa for that matter?

And what in Sam Hell do they have to do with BLM??

I FIND it rather odd that there is a continual conflating of the BLM protests following the raft of recent black deaths in police custody including that young black man simply jogging through his own neighbourhood .. with the kinda sadly but in reality concomitant acts of looting and property damage.

You need to seperate out the actions that concern you - identify the specific players - and by all means prosecute the fuck out of them.

But those who are exercising their democratic right of public protest do not need to be tarred with offences they have not committed.

Thats just fair, right?

You wouldn't want to be tarred with the crimes of another's doing?

Identify the responsible parties

[sgt.null]

sky - portions of Seattle and Portland have been occupied by antifa.
And the problem with the Marxist organization blm is they were founded on a lie. They perpetuate lies. They do not care about all black lives.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Antifa shows up and co-opts blm protests, turning them violent. Antifa also had a hand in the autonomous zone in Seattle. The blm are not trying to get rid of Antifa on their own because the violence helps their cause.

People who believe that police need to be defunded deserve never to have police protection ever again. When someone kicks in their front door they are just going to have to deal with it themselves.

Yes, I have argued against militarization of police for a long time, but the vast majority of police are not racists and have not acted out violently against the public. These people are taking a few isolated cases and trying to claim that those actions apply to all police everywhere.

[Skyweir]

Well lets call a spade a spade .. there has been some of that .. but there has also been a number of right wing agitators agitating the protests for their own purposes..

And in amongst it all are peaceful protesters exercising their democratic rights .. you know the ones you all care about so much

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Well lets call a spade a spade .. there has been some of that .. but there has also been a number of right wing agitators agitating the protests for their own purposes..

And in amongst it all are peaceful protesters exercising their democratic rights .. you know the ones you all care about so much

No argument from me on either of these points--violent agitators lie at both ends of the political spectrum.

There was a protest rally in Fort Worth over the weekend, designed specifically for schoolchildren to teach them how to protest peacefully. Not one window was broken, no one threw any objects, and not one protest sign had vulgarity on it--those kids learned a valuable lesson both in civics and in civil behavior. Afterwards, the organizers handed out school supplies--again, no complaints from me here because it was all peaceful.

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edit/add: a Philadelphia teacher has expressed concern that "conservative parents" might be listening in on virtual classrooms and this could disrupt "open" dialogues about topics such as race or gender issues. Translation: he is concerned that parents might become aware of how teachers are indoctrinating students.

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edit/add: Stockton University doctoral student Robert Dailyda is facing student conduct charges of "disruptive" behavior for having a picture of Trump be his Zoom background. That's right--even the man's image triggers those suffering from OMBS.

[sgt.null]

sky - still waiting for that proof of conservatives looting and burning.

[Skyweir]

What on earth are you talking about Null?

You have google right? If you wanted to know you'd know.

But cuz Im a soft touch .. here .. George Floyd protesters condemn opportunistic looting

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... g-violence

Get it?

There are a range of different activities being conducted at the same time .. unfortunately some activities are often seen occurring simultaneously ..

You all love the word nuancing .. but do you actually understand its meaning .. these actions require nuancing

Protesters .. and it is clear you will get a mixed bag of people attending the protests

You have left wing agitators who will take advantage of the circumstances that the protests provide

You have right wing agitators who will take advantage of the circumstances the protests provide

The majority of protest supporters will likely be their for the right reasons.

You have other activities ... looting, property damaging and acts of violence.

All of the above are acts of criminality where as the protests are not.

Though where and when the protesters themselves move from peaceful protest to violent protest they are no longer protected, right?

Few sociologists study looting specifically. But interviews with a half-dozen experts on protests and social movements provide some insights into looters’ motivations.

For one thing, looters and peaceful protesters aren’t typically the same people. Dana Fisher, a sociologist at the University of Maryland, has studied protests for 20 years, and she says it’s rare for peaceful protesters to start stealing and setting fires at random.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ot/612577/

Its true that some will lash out at public property and symbols of authority but these individuals need to be held accountable for any acts of criminality they engage in. These actions are criminal ... protesting is not.

I think there is also some truth to this

During the current protests, the opportunist appeal of looting might be exacerbated by the fact that people across the country have been ordered to stay inside for months in an effort to limit the spread of the coronavirus. The protests might have seemed, to some, like a release valve.

Nevertheless the facts require you to distinguish the relevant actions and actors.

Some looters, meanwhile, aren’t affiliated with protesters’ causes at all. Instead, they seize the moment to cause chaos and destruction. This might be what’s happening in videos where white people can be seen knocking out windows and ransacking businesses. Though it’s not yet clear to what extent, radical-left and white-nationalist groups are said to have infiltrated some of the protests and to have been instigating some of the mayhem.

Twitter suspended the account of a white supremacy organization it says was posing as a far left group.

It's accused of putting out wrong information to incite violence, and the social media company is now investigating hundreds of other accounts.

"People who came to do violence in a systematic organized fashion, that is a different reality we need to grapple with," New York City Mayor Bill De Blasio said.

https://abc7ny.com/looting-riots-macys- ... t/6227285/

Police have arrested two attorneys -- who they call professional agitators -- accused of throwing Molotov cocktails at an NYPD vehicle. They also arrested another woman they say was arrested 11 times in 11 states for acts of violence and resisting arrest.

So theres quite a melting pot of players, issues and activities .. and conflating them all into one homogenous event is essentially ignoring the facts.

[sgt.null]

So the entire proof of the widespread conservative looting and burning is twitter suspending one account of someone they say is a conservative group? So when i see antifa actually doing things like burning. Looting and rioting. I should not believe my lying eyes? When a top level blm member says he wants to burn the system down, don't believe him? When a blm top level woman says they are trained Marxists, is she lying? Is she really a white supremacist?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

You have left wing agitators who will take advantage of the circumstances that the protests provide

This accounts for about 90% of the violent agitators at this time.

You have right wing agitators who will take advantage of the circumstances the protests provide

This account for about 10% of the violent agitators at this time.

If there were actual right-wing actors stirring up violent action they would be at the top of the 24-hour news headlines at CNN, MSNBC, and the NYT every single day.

[Skyweir]

Your evidence of that specific distribution?