The Prestige

The KWMdB.

Moderators: sgt.null, dANdeLION

User avatar
lucimay
Lord
Posts: 15045
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:17 pm
Location: Mott Wood, Genebakis
Contact:

Post by lucimay »

finally saw this film. i really wanted to see it on a big screen but never had time to make it to the theater to see it so i netflixed it.

i was surprised at jackman's performance. i've grown used to his "over-acting" style and expected the same from him in this one, but was pleasantly surprised that this was one of his more subtle performances. perhaps Nolan as a director was able to pull him back some. it worked, at any rate, for me.

i always like Bale.

i had a difficult time watching the film on my tv. i don't know if it was the dvd or my old as hell Mitsubishi tv but, the soundtrack nearly buried the dialoge throughout most of the movie. drove me batty.
Spoiler
i didn't think the ending was so much a "twist" as it was "support for the thesis" if you will. and there were times when i was pretty sure i knew what was going on. especially the whole "i love you today/i don't love you today" bit. and in the beginning it was Bale's character who set out "the thesis", the idea that you sacrifice ALL for the art and it was the one thing Jackman's character didn't get.


and considering Nolan's other work (Following, Memento, Insomnia, Batman Begins) this kind of tale was right up his alley. he knew how to tell it and i understood why it appealed to him to make this particular story. he deals in identity stories.

and i am liking Michael Caine better and better as he gets older. i didn't used to care much for him but i've taken a liking to him of late.

i will be interested to see The Illusionist to see how these two films compare.
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19845
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Spoiler warning!!! I'm not going to spoiler tag the whole post. If you haven't seen it by now, stop reading fool!

I just got around to seeing this on DVD. Outstanding movie. I loved it all the way until the end, at which I had to groan in disappointment for the "double whammy" of twins-living-one-life vs. magic-science-copy-machine. But then I thought about it some more, and I've made peace with these ridiculous plot twists.

The plot holes bugged me at first, but I've been able to "plug up" those holes with a little critical thinking and suspension of disbelief. All of them, that is, except the most glaring plot hole of all: if Tesla was so hard up for cash, why didn't he just copy some money? Or gold? Or diamonds? Stupid Tesla. :)

But seriously, there's only one real plot hole that still bothers me. Why did Jackman's character have to die every night? Sure, he couldn't have 100 copies running around--but 100 corpses aren't much better. In fact, he could have simply dropped through the trap door each night before the cloning process was complete. Then he'd only need one clone to do the act, and wait to kill himself only when Borden showed up and actually went below the stage. Heck, he could have even had a third copy there to unlock the tank each night, so that the entire set-up was working and ready to go in the event that Borden showed up. Like I said, having copies around would be problematic, but certainly not more problematic than 100 rotting corpses that look just like you. Even the decomposing ones that no longer resembled him would be a tough thing to explain. The smell alone would have been impossible to hide.

After posting this on another forum, someone replied:
After Angier had his bad experience with his drunk double, he would not have wanted someone else (even if it was himself) to control any part of his life or his show. By using the teleported man with one of duplicates dying, it makes his plans less complicated.

Plus, unlike Borden who was willing to share the prestige, Angier was not willing to ever be the man taking his bows under the stage.

Dealing with blind stage hands and disposing of bodies was the "easiest" route for Angier.
. . . to which I replied:

So taking bows below the stage was worse than drowning himself below the stage. Got it.

No, actually, I don't. I know the guy was crazy, but if having an exact copy of himself taking his bows for him while he thrashed around in a watery grave isn't at least as bad as having another actor take the bows, then the movie just falls apart for me. Perhaps I'm taking it too seriously. I do recognize the thematic beauty of the way the act actually happens. But its logic relies upon the assumption that the "copy" was in fact the original--or at least the ambiguity of the copy/original duality. So if this ambiguity was sufficient to allow his "copy" to take his bows without engaging his "I don't like someone else taking my bows" response, then it should still apply whether he drowns himself or not. The fact that he has to drown himself to make the copy real, in his mind, seems like an admission that the copy isn't real--a denial of its reality or originality. Suicide is not an act of affirmation. It is denial. Maybe that's the point.

Following that point, I suppose one could apply it to the idea of "The REAL Transported Man." He wasn't really transported. But he wanted it to be real badly enough that he'd kill himself to make it real. If only one copy remains, then he has achieved a de facto teleportation.

Perhaps my Tesla-money quandry was the better plot hole after all. :)
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
User avatar
Usivius
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2767
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:09 pm

Post by Usivius »

my two cents:
if Tesla was so hard up for cash, why didn't he just copy some money? Or gold? Or diamonds? Stupid Tesla.
I have only seen the movie once, but I got the impression that Tesla didn't know what was going on with the duplication... wasn't it that all the hats and cats that were being duplicated were ending up somewhere outside in the forest?...
Why did Jackman's character have to die every night? Sure, he couldn't have 100 copies running around--but 100 corpses aren't much better. In fact, he could have simply dropped through the trap door each night before the cloning process was complete.
Excellent point, and logical to the bone. However, Jackman's character was beyond 'reason' at that point. Remember, his first panic reaction was to shoot his duplicate. He was suspicious and mad with grief and revenge! In his mind it was much neater to just kill 'himself' every night until Bale's charactrer finally showed up.
Not the best explanation, but that is a mad character's mind.
And there would be no smell, as the tanks were filled with water and air tight...
So taking bows below the stage was worse than drowning himself below the stage. Got it.

No, actually, I don't. I know the guy was crazy, but if having an exact copy of himself taking his bows for him while he thrashed around in a watery grave isn't at least as bad as having another actor take the bows, then the movie just falls apart for me.
The man is a showman. Knowing that someone is taking his bows for him is maddening. He can't stand it that someone else (even if only two people know about it, is getting that bit of recognition. And the drunk duplicate is rubbing it in by changing things too. That has got to be maddening.

Following that point, I suppose one could apply it to the idea of "The REAL Transported Man." He wasn't really transported. But he wanted it to be real badly enough that he'd kill himself to make it real. If only one copy remains, then he has achieved a de facto teleportation.
I think you summed it up there nicely.

All in all, a pretty good movie.
~...with a floating smile and a light blue sponge...~
ItisWritten
<i>Haruchai</i>
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 2:22 am
Location: Bellevue, Washington

Post by ItisWritten »

I don't have much to argue with here. However, I feel the need to add--
Excellent point, and logical to the bone. However, Jackman's character was beyond 'reason' at that point. Remember, his first panic reaction was to shoot his duplicate. He was suspicious and mad with grief and revenge! In his mind it was much neater to just kill 'himself' every night until Bale's charactrer finally showed up.
There was no panic in him about this. He was prepared to shoot his double as soon as the act crystallized in his mind. He set the gun in easy reach before he turned on the device. Remember, the first double knew he was going to be shot. "Wait--!"

(Think about that for a minute. If the double had Angier's thoughts from the moment before, then perhaps--in his twisted thoughts--there was no difference?)

Angier was mad, but a cold, dangerous madness that allowed him to commit suicide 100(?) times. The mentor (Caine) admonished him early in the movie about getting his hands dirty, but he didn't like that part. In his need to best Borden, he sunk himself into the blackest mud.

The part I can't get my head around is why he kept all those water coffins full. What nutso obsession was that about?

Here's a mind bender for you, just for fun. What if the original was transported and the copy left in its place? Even then Angier loses, because his double shoots him, then gets to experience the prestige night after night . . .

Creepy
ItisWritten
User avatar
dANdeLION
Lord
Posts: 23836
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
Contact:

Post by dANdeLION »

I believe the original was transported, and that the first copy killed the original Angier. I also believe that it's impossible to duplicate a soul, and in the end was a soulless being, which explains his willingness to die evey night.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


High priest of THOOOTP

:hobbes: *

* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19845
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Well, I believe it's impossible to duplicate a person (much less a soul), but this is science fiction!

If it's impossible to duplicate a soul, why it is possible to make one with sexual intercourse? Is a soul created by the joining of egg and sperm? Or does God insert it at some later point? If the latter is the case, why does God insert souls into deformed bodies, sometimes?

I don't think that our personal spiritual beliefs can be used to analyse the logic of a fictional story. The story set up its own rules: a copy was made. It doesn't matter which one is the copy, because they're identical. Since they're identical, they both think they are the original. Thus, doing the trick every night was an act of suicide, not the act of a soulless "robot."
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
ItisWritten
<i>Haruchai</i>
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 2:22 am
Location: Bellevue, Washington

Post by ItisWritten »

Malik23 wrote:I don't think that our personal spiritual beliefs can be used to analyse the logic of a fictional story. The story set up its own rules: a copy was made. It doesn't matter which one is the copy, because they're identical. Since they're identical, they both think they are the original. Thus, doing the trick every night was an act of suicide, not the act of a soulless "robot."
Absolutely. If spirituality--the soul--had been the point, which one was the duplicate would have been raised in the story.

The Prestige was about how far a man would go to win accolades--and revenge. Angier did not want to know how much the "double" was like him, but he couldn't miss the elation on the other's face. It was a no-brainer for the one on-stage to suicide. For the other, he was transported. For the prestige to retain integrity, there could only be one Angier. Like Borden, secrecy was everything, and Angier could not control his first double. Usivius has the right angle.
Why did Jackman's character have to die every night?
Because he already knew what it was like to perform a great trick without the applause. He'd rather be dead.

Sick and twisted? Yeah, but he also got revenge on Borden. Well, mostly. :screwy:
ItisWritten
User avatar
dANdeLION
Lord
Posts: 23836
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
Contact:

Post by dANdeLION »

This is beginning to sound like a Close thread......
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


High priest of THOOOTP

:hobbes: *

* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
User avatar
Usivius
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2767
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:09 pm

Post by Usivius »

:lol:
~...with a floating smile and a light blue sponge...~
ItisWritten
<i>Haruchai</i>
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 2:22 am
Location: Bellevue, Washington

Post by ItisWritten »

dANdeLION wrote:This is beginning to sound like a Close thread......
*examines from different angles*

Must be an inside joke. *knocks on door*
ItisWritten
User avatar
dANdeLION
Lord
Posts: 23836
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
Contact:

Post by dANdeLION »

The Close is the Kevin's Watch theology/religion forum; no inside joke.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=37
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


High priest of THOOOTP

:hobbes: *

* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
User avatar
danlo
Lord
Posts: 20838
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:29 pm
Location: Albuquerque NM
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Post by danlo »

Malik wrote:Well, I believe it's impossible to duplicate a person (much less a soul), but this is science fiction!
Quite true! I love Christopher Priest's science fiction from Indoctrinaire, The Inverted World, The Dream of Wessex straight through to The Affirmation. When I saw this title I knew I would love this film. Beautiful movie! I don't think you can compare this to The Illusionist, both great in their own right. The Illusionist is more of an impressionist painting...The Prestige was more of a very well concieved film. And true, bad accents in TI but I missed a few things Bale was trying to say too. The below should probably be in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi forum-but I posted this a long time ago in Gen. Sci-Fi at the Hangar>if you haven't read Christopher Priest, you should-The Inverted World catapulted me into Sci-Fi, and then Dune did the rest...



BLUFF YOUR WAY AS A PRIEST EXPERT!

by David Langsford 1995

INDOCTRINAIRE (1970)

Slightly abstract and surreal tale about a chap held prisoner in a version of Brazil. The most memorable sf plot device is the `live' hand growing out of a table which, during interrogations, points at our hero in a fearfully menacing way.

Priest: "It was a period. There are a couple of good bits, but unfortunately I can't remember what they are."

FUGUE FOR A DARKENING ISLAND (1972)

Disorienting cut-up-and-reshuffled narrative of nasty events in an England swamped by African refugees from a nuclear war. At the time our author was dead proud of having slipped a rogue piece into the jigsaw story, one that doesn't actually fit anywhere.

Priest: "The first book of mine about someone who misremembers things. This has become something of a theme, based on one of my own failings. Another period piece, this is the one novel of mine where one hostile review wiped out any cheerful thoughts I ever had about the book, and I haven't been able to look at it since."

INVERTED WORLD (1974)

This world really is inverted, geometrically transformed from a sphere to a hyperboloid whose equator and poles taper off to infinity (which makes Larry Niven's Ringworld look a bit puny, though later on it was topped by mathematically "bigger" infinities in Rudy Rucker's White Light). Across the distorted surface trundles a whole city on wheels, fleeing disaster.... Mindboggling stuff, shortlisted for the Hugo award.

Priest: "The best opening sentence I ever wrote (even better in French!), and in the middle of the book is the best sf scene I ever wrote. I dined out on these two bits for about ten years after the book came out. I wouldn't be able to write Inverted World now, because I'd be too inhibited and self-conscious."

REAL-TIME WORLD (collection, 1974)

Uneven collection of early stories, with two interestingly prophetic items: the grisly `The Head and the Hand', starring a performance artist who chops bits off himself before huge audiences, and the title story with its foreshadowing of later Priest preoccupations.

Priest: "This book happened because Inverted World did well. To be frank, I think it was too soon to put together a collection. But scarcity has its own dynamics, and the hardback has become by a long way the most collectable of my titles."

THE SPACE MACHINE (1976)

A cheery romp: a gentle pastiche of H.G. Wells which begins with the assumption that The War of the Worlds and The Time Machine were episodes in the same alternative history, and helpfully fills in several gaps. Much of the action takes place on Mars, and we finally learn how the Martian invaders launched their capsules....

Priest: "I thoroughly enjoyed writing this one, probably more than I should have done. For me it represents a kind of personal peak, because I wrote it in an extrovert mood during a happy period of my life, at a time when I wasn't too broke, and I was not yet feeling held back by other people putting labels on me. Everything went smoothly until publication day, when the Observer memorably observed, `Three hundred pages of homicidal tedium', since when I have written in a state of politically correct humility."

A DREAM OF WESSEX (1977)
marketed in the US as Dream Lover

The sf gimmick is predicting the future (or at least, a self-consistent possible future) by consensual hallucination in a kind of cyberspace. But the personalities of certain experimenters overshadow mere logical extrapolation....

Priest: "This novel represents a kind of valediction to trad sf, because it explicitly describes the process of futuristic imagining, then subverts the whole business. It has recently been described as the novel that predicted virtual reality, but that's because whoever said it hadn't spotted the subversion."

AN INFINITE SUMMER (collection, 1979)

A mixed bag of atmospheric short stories. Besides the much-anthologized title piece this includes "Palely Loitering" (a BSFA Award winner) and the Hugo-shortlisted, TV-adapted novella "The Watched".

Priest: "Another chunk of mid-1970s Priest, a bit raw in places, a bit soppy in others, but with a particular mood throughout that I haven't caught since."

(An Infinite Summer and The Affirmation centre on the "Dream Archipelago" venue; two more published stories with this setting exist, "The Cremation" and "The Miraculous Cairn" -- not collected with the others except in translated omnibus editions published in France and Germany. Priest: "I have been secretly hoping I might one day get a British or American publisher to do the same, but would want to rewrite all the stories first.")

THE AFFIRMATION (1981)

Indescribable. Read it! As one reviewer (oh all right, Ian Watson) noted, this book -- which only seems to end abruptly in mid-sentence -- can be re-read with a new understanding as its own sequel.

Priest: "The first of the novels to make a deliberate effort to deal in a new and realistic way with stock sf ideas: in this case, immortality. The whole novel, from beginning to end, subverts reader expectations: everything is unreliable. As a result I think The Affirmation has the best overall plot I ever wrote, and also the best and most surprising plot revelation ... on the other hand I think it has rough edges, caused by my being a bit nervous about what I was up to."

THE GLAMOUR (1984)

H.G.Wells's invisibility is physical: light somehow passes undisturbed through the invisible person. G.K.Chesterton's psychological invisibility (see his Father Brown story "The Invisible Man", which Chris insists he's never read) applies to people and things you don't notice, can't take in, have forgotten even though they're in plain sight.... The Glamour passes through this territory and goes far beyond.

Priest: "Another go at a stock sf theme: this time invisibility. Again, nothing about the novel can be trusted. I look back on this book and enjoy the plot, and the strength of the central metaphor (invisibility = memory loss), but once again I feel uncomfortable with certain short passages. The Glamour was once spoken of as a major Hollywood `vehicle' for Barbra Streisand and Christopher Walken, a fact which ten years later still has the power to make my goolies shrink in horror."

THE QUIET WOMAN (1990)

A deceptively understated tale whose backdrop is a withering extrapolation of Thatcherite excess: the media prevented from reporting the awkward fact of Southern England being partly radioactive, the barely restricted power of a now-privatized Military Intelligence, and worse.

Priest: "BBC-TV got hold of this one, dramatized it into a three-parter, hired a director, recce'd the locations ... then did nothing until the contract expired. I was sorry about this, because apart from the obvious benefits of having a book on TV, I was dying to see how they would work out the story. This has an anti-plot: on the surface it's a story of a woman surviving a nuclear accident, but as soon as you delve into it nothing is certain any more."

THE PRESTIGE (1995)

The Victorian era: and two stage magicians are deadly rivals leading strangely parallel lives. Each has his own unique version of a major magical illusion; each is baffled by the other's method; the two different secrets go beyond mere mirrors and trapdoors to be the central defining and distorting factor in their owners' lives. Compulsive stuff.

Priest: "The newest one, and therefore still a favourite. I think for the time being I'm too close to it to have any idea how it fits in relation to the others, but the usual Priest stuff about misremembering is in there, and a plot with many intricate developments. This novel, with Space Machine, is the most widely researched of my books. I must by now know more about magic than most people, but I still don't understand how tricks are done ... even when I find out."

danlo's note-Little known facts: Mr. Priest wrote a number of Dr. Who episodes and is close friends, and biographer of Harlan Ellison.
fall far and well Pilots!
User avatar
Xar
Lord
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:41 pm
Location: Watching over the Pantheon...

Post by Xar »

Spoiler
Well, as I also read elsewhere, the original Angier surely died long before Borden was framed. Either he was teleported out of the "cage" during the first experiment (in which case he was shot by the copy) or he was the one who would remain in the cage while a copy was created outside (in which case he drowned the first time he performed the act). So, no matter what, even the Angier who resumed his family name was a copy.
By the way, Danlo, an interesting signature you got there :P
Last edited by Xar on Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
danlo
Lord
Posts: 20838
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:29 pm
Location: Albuquerque NM
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Post by danlo »

:wink:
The Glamour was once spoken of as a major Hollywood `vehicle' for Barbra Streisand and Christopher Walken, a fact which ten years later still has the power to make my goolies shrink in horror."
-that line never fails to crack me up!@ :biggrin:
fall far and well Pilots!
User avatar
matrixman
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 8361
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:24 am

Post by matrixman »

Darn it, I really need to see this film. Missed it when it came out cuz I think it was only in local theatres for a week. Managed to avoid reading all the spoilers here. :)
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Post by wayfriend »

I really liked it. Yes, there was one twist that wasn't really a twist if you were watching carefully. But the way it played out and changed the story was not predictable. It's very enjoyable to watch a movie which doesn't dumb down. I liked the references to the real Tesla's real achievements, such as the light bulbs in the ground.

Bowie's Tesla reminded me of someone, but I cannot put a finger on it.
.
User avatar
Wyldewode
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6414
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:37 am
Location: lost in the wood

Post by Wyldewode »

I liked the movie, and was happy to see Bowie in another movie! My roommate bought it, and didn't love it enough to keep it, so now it belongs to me. Score! :D
Image

Image
User avatar
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae
Posts: 25476
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:14 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Post by Fist and Faith »

Just saw this for the first time yesterday. How could I not watch a movie with Batman and Wolvering? Really enjoyed it. Some cool, wack-o characters. Not much to add to what's been said above. Interesting to see that Bale outdid the Chinese guy in presenting a false real-life to the public.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

Image
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

I too finally got around to seeing this.

For the record, I'm not a fan of Nolan's. He thinks he's much cleverer than he really is, and his movies are generally pretentious, overwrought, messes that sound like a bunch of stoned freshmen philosophy majors wrote it. I continue to go see them though, as Nolan's quite capable of making visually stunning films.

This film suffers from all the weaknesses that Zar mentions, but none of them are truly fatal. The high-minded gobblety-gook is kept to a minimum, and there's a surprisingly coherent narrative (for Nolan) buried in there.

This may be my favorite Nolan film.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
Obi-Wan Nihilo
Pathetic
Posts: 6503
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:37 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Well, I simply can't accept that analysis of Nolan as applied to The Dark Knight for instance, but I will simply add that Bowie's Tesla is what gives this movie dramatic weight, even if the trans substantiation of valuable assets remained unattempted. You can even see that flaw as an element of the metanarrative of movie as magic trick. We get to the point where we are invested enough in the story that we want to believe.
Image

The catholic church is the largest pro-pedophillia group in the world, and every member of it is guilty of supporting the rape of children, the ensuing protection of the rapists, and the continuing suffering of the victims.
Post Reply

Return to “Flicks”