Its so we can catch the terrorist and criminals.. dont worry

[Holsety]

Well, since we're a republic, not a democracy....

Aren't we a constitutional democracy?

*Looks at wikipedia for a while*

Oh damn, we're a federal presidential constitutional republic ;( Shiiiiiit. If this is a republic does that make bush my philosopher king?

The first (a "good" democracy) leads directly to the second (a "democratically" governed society). An uninterested population loses control of its governance.

It's not necessarily disinterest as it is an exchange; when we started the US, we exchange some freedoms for some privileges/security. Negligence, maybe: "meh, something's being done about it so it's probably the right step, and I'm probably not going to lose much in the exchange."

It's funny that a fair amount of us (I think I number among the group I'm trying to describe) seem to be willing to downplay the importance of some of these exchanges while still being worried about others. Of course, like the "first they came for the fatties" poem, there's always the possibility that any exchange will, sooner or later, precipitate a further and more important exchange.

"It's the beginning of the surveillance society where you can be tracked anywhere, any time and all your movements, and eventually all your activities will be tracked and noted and correlated," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Technology and Liberty Project.

I guess my only question is whether it's the beginning, or just an important mark on the side of the road we're already on. That sounds sorta hyperbolic, sorry.

[Tull]

Yeah, a true democracy is waaaaay too inefficient for anything much bigger than a village - the way I understand it, basically, the ENTIRE COUNTRY is your Congress. Every citizen of voting age gets to vote on every single piece of legislature. It's nuts.

[Holsety]

Yeah, a true democracy is waaaaay too inefficient for anything much bigger than a village - the way I understand it, basically, the ENTIRE COUNTRY is your Congress. Every citizen of voting age gets to vote on every single piece of legislature. It's nuts.

Right, that's why I was thinkinng Mhoram was thinking of "true" as a sort of values or "better/worse" sort of thing and not so much a "purest, original meaning of the word democracy."

However, I've always felt like technology moves us closer to the point where direct voting on issues is, in terms of the technical stuff, an open possibility. Or something.

[sgt.null]

aren't we a bureaucratic kleptocracy?

[Montresor]

aren't we a bureaucratic kleptocracy?

Haha! Sounds about right.

In all seriousness, I'd call the States an Oligarchy.

Nice Dalek, btw, Sarge.

[sgt.null]

thanks. i like some daleks i do.

with our increasing horrid voting turnouts what will our country become? represenative would imply participation. i hope for strong voter turnout today. we don't vote texas today. sometime in march i think.

[SoulBiter]

Look, they can't put your fingerprints and palm prints and retinal scans in a database without your permission. They can't do it without you knowing. I think I'd notice some government official pressing my palms to an inkpad. There's no reason to get all worked up about this.

True but try being a member of society without it. In many states you must be fingerprinted to obtain a drivers licence.

Most states are requiring all Govt employees (teachers and school administrators especially) to get fingerprinted and a background check.

Some schools already use fingerprint scanners and biometrics for kids in the school lunch line.

Banks and retailers are starting to require it.

--Washington mutual in Georgia requires a thumbprint to get an account with them.

-- Bi-Lo, a grocery chain based in Mauldin, S.C., is rolling out a fingerprint system for payroll check cashing to 150 more stores after a test this year in 26 locations.

-- U-Haul has taken thumbprints from customers since 1999 as a deterrent to theft or abandonment of its trucks and trailers. The Phoenix-based company decides where to require it, based on equipment loss. The system is not used in Georgia, according to the company.

-- A handful of businesses in the Washington area allow customers to use a fingerprint and a pass-code number to pay for goods instead of writing a check.

--The Court of Appeals have upheld Bank of America's right to require thumbprint identification from non-customers trying to cash checks.

--Real Time Data Management has devised a kiosk that scans a person's fingerprint and accepts their initial deposit. The kiosk can be set up anywhere. Bill Rogers says 35 credit unions have deployed the fingerprint-identifying kiosks.

[sgt.null]

sounds like they are trying to beat out criminal fraud in all of these cases. did 1984 involve criminal scams?

[SoulBiter]

1984 involved the use of similar systems to limit freedom. Im glad you are comfortable with giving up your freedoms to the state. Im not.

These kinds of things are put in place in the name of 'protecting you' but in the long run (mark my words) they will be used against people in ways that they were never intended.

[Zarathustra]

I don't see any difference between being fingerprinted for a driver's license, and getting your "mug shot" taken. I don't see how proving your identity is giving up your freedom. If anything, it is protecting your freedom, because it protects your identity. No one can fake your fingerprints. Can you list a freedom that is being taken away by this activity?

[emotional leper]

I don't see any difference between being fingerprinted for a driver's license, and getting your "mug shot" taken. I don't see how proving your identity is giving up your freedom. If anything, it is protecting your freedom, because it protects your identity. No one can fake your fingerprints. Can you list a freedom that is being taken away by this activity?

The Freedom to Remain Anonymous.

[SoulBiter]

I don't see any difference between being fingerprinted for a driver's license, and getting your "mug shot" taken. I don't see how proving your identity is giving up your freedom. If anything, it is protecting your freedom, because it protects your identity. No one can fake your fingerprints. Can you list a freedom that is being taken away by this activity?

EL has it right. The freedom to remain anonymous. If I have done nothing wrong, and I wanted to remain anonymous. I couldnt. This is the first step to being tracked in every way, everywhere, no matter where you go. Whats next? Palm readers in handles for buildings? So when you open a door it knows who you are and tracks that movement? Public spaces equipped with biometric cameras and banks and ATMs using biometric fingerprint scanners can be used to track your individual movements, both in real time or historically?

[sgt.null]

how is anyone anonymous anymore? you need id for everything.

[Prebe]

If we lived in a real democracy, the protest would be deafening.

No if the majority wasn't so afraid (sorry, "outraged" of course ExNihilo. I forgot), the protests would be deafening.

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear

Tell that to this guy

[SoulBiter]

how is anyone anonymous anymore? you need id for everything.

You still have some measure of anonymousness (is that a word?). I can not bring my licence with me and for the most part I would be able to move and do business within society with little problem. With Biometrics and a database you could, and in the future probably would, be identified everywhere you go. You enter any door and it reads your palmprint. You walk under a biometric scanner somewhere and it records that you were there. You go to a protest of some sort and they put up scanners to record that you were there. It wont surprise me if one day they want to RFID everyone at birth. This destroys the very basis of having any right to privacy.

[sgt.null]

you can go where you want - but we are getting away from paper money. you want the convienence of a credit card - you need id. you want to rent an apartment or buy a house. get a car. go hunting or fishing. if you want to vote. i don't see some great conspiracy.

[SoulBiter]

you can go where you want - but we are getting away from paper money. you want the convienence of a credit card - you need id. you want to rent an apartment or buy a house. get a car. go hunting or fishing. if you want to vote. i don't see some great conspiracy.

And thats why we will lose our freedoms and our rights to privacy.

Padme:So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause.

[sgt.null]

you can go where you want - but we are getting away from paper money. you want the convienence of a credit card - you need id. you want to rent an apartment or buy a house. get a car. go hunting or fishing. if you want to vote. i don't see some great conspiracy.

And thats why we will lose our freedoms and our rights to privacy.

Padme:So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause.

please find this right to privacy in the law. we have to comprimise all the time. for safety or ease. does it matter what reason we sign off on? we want to protect from bad guys.

[emotional leper]

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[SoulBiter]

you can go where you want - but we are getting away from paper money. you want the convienence of a credit card - you need id. you want to rent an apartment or buy a house. get a car. go hunting or fishing. if you want to vote. i don't see some great conspiracy.

And thats why we will lose our freedoms and our rights to privacy.

Padme:So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause.

please find this right to privacy in the law. we have to comprimise all the time. for safety or ease. does it matter what reason we sign off on? we want to protect from bad guys.

The right to privacy has been invoked many many times over the years and although you will not find this written expressly into the Constitution you will find that there is a legal precedence set for the last 150 years or so. The precedence basically is my right to be left alone as long as Im not infringing on others rights. This right is only superceded by the law having enough evidence to prove that Im breaking the law.