I don't want to read this book anymore~

[W.B.]

When I read the books the first time, I spent much of Lord Foul's Bane waiting for what he had done to Lena to sink into Covenant's brain, but to me it didn't seem that he really confronted it until later on in the series. He starts to a little in LFB, but it seemed like it built up throughout. So right off, his lack or reaction, is certainly frustrating. This can be annoying (one of the annoying things about Covenant is that he can be very self-centered, even when he's thinking about others--hey, another paradox!), but I'd say the rewards of reading the books make it worth it. I would, though, not read them when feeling depressed or out of sorts, kind of have something positive to turn to.

[Theo]

When I read the books the first time, I spent much of Lord Foul's Bane waiting for what he had done to Lena to sink into Covenant's brain, but to me it didn't seem that he really confronted it until later on in the series. He starts to a little in LFB, but it seemed like it built up throughout. So right off, his lack or reaction, is certainly frustrating. This can be annoying (one of the annoying things about Covenant is that he can be very self-centered, even when he's thinking about others--hey, another paradox!), but I'd say the rewards of reading the books make it worth it. I would, though, not read them when feeling depressed or out of sorts, kind of have something positive to turn to.

This bugged me a lot, too. On subsequent rereadings I realized (sort of) what Donaldson was doing with it, but I still think this is a major flaw of the first book. I've posted some rambling ideas on how to get around this in a hypothetical LFB movie (see the "Chronicles Filmed" thread).

Theo

[variol son]

Once again, sorry for the mess.

Don't be sorry, Blue_Spawn. This IS a site dedicated to the discussion of SRD's works, and you have generated some pretty darn good discussion. Besides, a little mess now and then makes life fun. I hope to see you post a lot in days to come.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Fist and Faith]

What he said!! What kind of jerks would we be if we hung out at a site dedicated to TCTC, but wouldn't let anybody discuss one of the most important - in so many ways! - scenes of all?

[Landwaster]

One of the really finteresting things about the story is that TC's condition (leprosy PLUS the psychological dead-end that that puts him in) doesn't actually ALLOW for him to properly experience GUILT.

He knows what's wrong, but he actually CANNOT go ahead and feel guilty for a wrongdoing. He can treat himself like crap or consider himself a piece of garbage, but for the very essence of his survival he cannot entertain ANY thoughts of his WORTH, NOR his WORTHLESS-NESS. For him, he has to make his VALUE of HIMSELF a non-entity. Anything else would kill him.

On top of that, in this situation where most of us would probably fail and off ourselves because we simply can't take it anymore, even THAT is not THAT simple for him ("Its not that simple" - he says this a lot).

He has only one driving force in his life : to ensure he doesn't fail to stay alive.

You want torture? Try being someone with no reason on this earth to live and yet WITH NO OPTION EVEN OF KILLING HIMSELF.

Sorry everybody. But I disagree with you all. TC is a hero, of sorts. He was, is , and will be, in a lot more strife than anyone could ever fathom, even despite reading 5000 pages about it we still can't begin to understand.

this was SRD's intention, I am certain of it. I think he achieved it.

(end rant LOL)

[Skyweir]

Once again, sorry for the mess.

Don't be sorry, Blue_Spawn. This IS a site dedicated to the discussion of SRD's works, and you have generated some pretty darn good discussion. Besides, a little mess now and then makes life fun. I hope to see you post a lot in days to come.

Sum sui generis
Vs

exactly!!! you have raised some really excellent issues here Blue_Spawn!! great discussion fodder to be had by all

and has been said .. Kevins Watch is not an agreement site .. different views are inevitably a part of any discussion ..

imho your comments and concerns are valid and thanks for sharing them .. and not just chucking it in and leaving

[Blue_Spawn]

Yer -_-

Too bad I was late a year or so with the discussion.

[duchess of malfi]

Actually, if you are referring to Dissecting the Land, they are ongoing and continuous open discussions.

[Elwyn]

Blue Spawn, before I started reading the chronicles I was forewarned of the rape scene. The series had been recommended in another forum and I bought the first book to see if I would like it. If I had not been forewarned about the scene, I might very well have just put it down and never picked it up again. I think that scene was unnecessary and should not have been written the way it was. Nevertheless, it is there.

I am now on the third book of the series and I enjoy the books very much. I have thought much about TC and his violent act and his part in the land. I haven seen that TC does not want forgiveness for his act, for that matter he gets quite ugly when he thinks people do forgive him. He thinks what he did was horrible, despicable, and unforgivable, and you can see this as you read further on.

The thing that gets me about TC s that he is so incredibly negative, depressing, completely self-absorbed, and often times a coward. Then he'll surprise me by doing something totally unselfish and brave. He never thinks of himself as a hero, and in my opinion, if he does something heroic, it's mostly by accident, not because he is a hero at heart. I hope as I read on through the third book and into the next set that Covenant learns to deal with the land and that fact that while he is in that land he has great power with the white gold; he just needs to learn to use it. I am just over 125 pages into the third book and I am now seeing that he is beginning to deal with these things, so I have hopes for him in the next set of books.

My advice to you is to not give up just yet. I understand how you feel. I felt particularly strongly about that violent act as I, too, have had such a violent act commited against me. Yet, I did give the series a chance and have enjoyed it very much. I think you will too if you can manage to get over that one violent act TC commited.

[aliantha]

Landwaster, thanks for reminding me of a quote that I could use for my signature!

I, too, read right over the rape the first time, accepting it as part of the book and moving on. The scene hit me with a lot more power in subsequent readings, but by then I knew where it was all going.

Danlo's right that Covenant is not a hero but an anti-hero. Even in saving the Land at the end of WGW, his actions generate more questions than they answer. Nothing in these books is wrapped up in a neat little package for the reader. I think that's one reason why I still enjoy them.

[Blue_Spawn]

My advice to you is to not give up just yet. I understand how you feel. I felt particularly strongly about that violent act as I, too, have had such a violent act commited against me. Yet, I did give the series a chance and have enjoyed it very much. I think you will too if you can manage to get over that one violent act TC commited.

Its funny...I can handle the view of almost any form of violence, except for that one. Something about the helplesness of the victim bothers me. Please accept condolences on my behalf for what you had to go through. Reading that, must have been particularly hard for you.

I was actually more interested to know how Lena came through her burden. Since in the beggining you only get glimpses of her reaction. See, I'm not really as bothered by the actual act of rape as I appear. Its not like I came across anything new or even that much explicit. But that scene still seems out of place. I'd agree that it was uneeded as well, except that some peeps claim that it directly pertains to the plot. Personally, I would have liked to discuss the scene on a deeper level, than the plot/character development. There are also a lot of figurative themes there which one could extract.

[variol son]

I was actually more interested to know how Lena came through her burden.

If you keep going you will find out, although I would caution you to steel yourself, as Lena's life after the act is very sad in many cases. You could perhaps call her a tragic heroine, but a heroine nonetheless.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Blue_Spawn]

Sad stories are cool because they give you much more depth into themes and life. And they make you think much more about stuff.

[Furls Fire]

This is definately one of those stories...

[Worm of Despite]

The best stories ever written were sad ones. A man/woman's true character emerges when they are beset upon by tragedy.

[Blue_Spawn]

I agree.

Though, to me, its not just the tragedy itself that's involving, but more of how the characters pull or struggle through it. Things like "T of Romeo and Juliet," that concentrate on the topic of tragedy itself grab little of my interest, for they show little struggle of the characters.

[Landwaster]

I also agree re sad stories having more character licence.

[Revan]

In the begining of the novel, we are given substantial, numerous evidences that Covenant (in addition to being a nut case) is sexually obsessed. He makes reference to wanting (sexually) a group of highschool girls, his ex-wife Joan, and notes Lena's breasts and figure at least four times. In addition, as Covenant rips appart Lena's clothing, we are given indications that he enjoys what he does. That he does it almost with pride, that he stares at her bare breasts for a moment, and that he "suffocates in passion" as he rapes her. Someone said that being apart from his wife gives him great sexual desires. Desiring sex is one thing, but going as far as actually committing forced sex to achieve it is another. I am quite confident that sexual obsession is part of Covenant's nature.

-You call it sexual obession.
-I call it being male.

[Furls Fire]

I think Donaldson does an outstanding job of describing Covenant's descent into leprosy. Here he was, a happily married man, a new father, his first novel published and working on the second...life was wonderful. Then BAM...leprosy. This disease isn't like cancer. People don't abhor you if you have cancer. But they do if you get leprosy, or AIDS. So, he loses his wife, he loses his son, he loses his friends, peers, community. They hate him. They try everything they can to get rid of him. (more so in the later books, it's absolutely heartbreaking what they do to him). Not only that, he becomes leprosy. It dictates his life. His hands and feet grow numb, he himself grows numb, becomes impodent of life itself. He's trained into the life of being a leper. He identifies himself as being a leper, nothing else...not a husband, father, writer, friend, person...he is nothing more then Thomas Covenant, leper.

Then, he's thrown into the Land. Here, his leprosy is healed. But how is that possible? It freaks him out. If it's gone, he can't protect himself against it, he could lose his self-discipline, the dictation of his life. Believing in the Land was a leper's suicide. He could not let himself do that. And it's potency bombarded him, it was too much. So, he lost control, lost his mind, and he committed that one rash act of violence.

Sigh, I don't believe he was "sexual obsessed". It was just one more thing that leprosy took from him.

[Elwyn]

Blue_Spawn wrote:

Its not like I came across anything new or even that much explicit. But that scene still seems out of place. I'd agree that it was uneeded as well, except that some peeps claim that it directly pertains to the plot. Personally, I would have liked to discuss the scene on a deeper level, than the plot/character development.

If you remember that TC is a leper, which causes him to be impotent, have numbness in his extremities, disfigurement, and literally be an outcast from society, completely out of control of his own life and despised by all, you can begin to understand how he felt when he comes to this land and suddenly is healed from all of that, including his impotence, which should be impossible. As a leper, he has tried to keep himself free of emotions because he feels that emotions will kill him. He can't afford to have emotions. Suddenly, while he is in the land, he not only finds himself healed, but he is experiencing things he hasn't allowed himself to experience for a long time, namely emotions.

Now, I'm not trying to be sexist in this next statement I'm about to make so don't jump down my throat. I think First Mark Tuvor said it very well when he said:

-You call it sexual obession.
-I call it being male.

I think to men, impotence is the worst thing that can happen to a man. They can take sickness, injuries, etc, but don't take away their manhood. To most men, they lose their manhood if they become impotent. For TC to suddenly have these urges and desires again, to feel out of control of his emotions, which he has kept a tight lid on, I think it drove him partially out of his mind. He was thinking, "This couldn't be happening, it's impossible, I can't be feeling this way." Now, I'm not condoning his actions in any way, but I've been thinking of it, and this made some sort of sense to me. Not only that, but remember what the land's lore said about the white gold wielder. He is described in their lore as being the epitome of contradictions, a walking oxymoron. I don't have the book in front of me so I can't quote it, but he is both cruel and kind, destroyer and savior, etc. His act of violence against Lena is like that. Later on you see him struggle with who he is and what the land has done to him as well as what he has done to the land and it's people. He really is an paradox.

Agreed, it was necessary that he and Lena have a physical relationship in order for the rest of the story to work out, but I think Donaldson was using that violence against Lena as a way of showing that TC was that paradox that the land's lore speaks of, albeit, a rather tasteless way of showing it. I do think it could have been handled better.