Help! Calling all Watchers...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

"I have your son."

Notice the ambiguity of LF's statement regarding Jeremiah. It does not say he kidnapped her son. It does not say he has him voluntarily either. So we don't know if he was kidnapped or went with LF voluntarily. Or neither.

At the beginning of RoTE, it sounded like Joan, when she regained consciousness, was in collusion with Roger. I think it has something to do with helping Jeremiah.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Some of the info I accidentaly gleamed from threads snooping around, not meaning too...some I predicted (I think, maybe not)...

...but your wrong on one count, I said I WASN'T good at predicting things...

Before I do that, how do you do the Spoiler thingy?

[Zarathustra]

Fair enough, you said you weren't usually good at predicting these things, but exceedingly good at predicting Donaldson.

Why spoiler anything? This is the forum for people who have already read the book. We're trying not to spoil it for you.

But if you've already spoiled yourself, then I don't see the point. You've ruined the dramatic effect, and will probably be even more disappointed.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I'd disagree. See, there's no tension, no build...so a reveal of a former character in a larger role doesn't do "it" for me...actually it's anti-impressive, umm, George Lucas'ish...reuse, wash, reuse...

Ardenol, Wildewood, Roger, croyel (just finished Melenkurion Skywier chapter - what if Linden was wrong and Cov really was Cov? They'd be stuck forever right?)...

...and I think it's because the whole story for us at this point has been "told" instead of "shown", so being told that this old character is actually this so and so and is important...doesn't have any dramatic affect because it doesn't change anything I'm invested in at the time...does that make sense? I found the Vile-speak very interesting at first, but it seemed to be just more exposition on the internal plight of the Viles instead of actual story/characters/people...

[Vraith]

And while you're at it, since you claimed to be good at prediction . . . any thoughts on Jeremiah? How about the big climax at the end of this book?

I feel I need to correct this...Jacob said he's bad at prediction, I'm the one who said I was good, while arguing (er...respectfully discussing) with him, in another thread.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

And while you're at it, since you claimed to be good at prediction . . . any thoughts on Jeremiah? How about the big climax at the end of this book?

I feel I need to correct this...Jacob said he's bad at prediction, I'm the one who said I was good, while arguing (er...respectfully discussing) with him, in another thread.

As long as the arguing is intelligent...spade a spade...
...doesn't hurt my feelings when someone disagrees with me.

[Zarathustra]

I'd disagree. See, there's no tension, no build...so a reveal of a former character in a larger role doesn't do "it" for me...actually it's anti-impressive, umm, George Lucas'ish...reuse, wash, reuse...

I was talking about the Roger/croyel reveal. You didn't think that was an extremely dramatic scene? Did you have that spoiled for you before reading it?

Ardenol, Wildewood, Roger, croyel (just finished Melenkurion Skywier chapter - what if Linden was wrong and Cov really was Cov? They'd be stuck forever right?)...

Your question is confusing. I don't want to spoil anything for you. But Cov really Cov? Aren't you done with the first half? What makes you think it's not Roger?

Being "stuck" isn't necessarily a moot point.

I'm not saying that your points are invalid, in fact many people share some of these gripes (including me).

What do you know about Ardenol? I didn't think that had been revealed in the first half. I suppose that's something that you spoiled yourself. But that's not what I was talking about with the "dramatic conclusions." In fact, it wasn't as big a deal to me as others in this community. There was certainly nothing very dramatic about its revelation, in terms of Linden's journey--not like the end of the first half.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I'd disagree. See, there's no tension, no build...so a reveal of a former character in a larger role doesn't do "it" for me...actually it's anti-impressive, umm, George Lucas'ish...reuse, wash, reuse...

I was talking about the Roger/croyel reveal. You didn't think that was an extremely dramatic scene? Did you have that spoiled for you before reading it?

Ardenol, Wildewood, Roger, croyel (just finished Melenkurion Skywier chapter - what if Linden was wrong and Cov really was Cov? They'd be stuck forever right?)...

Your question is confusing. I don't want to spoil anything for you. But Cov really Cov? Aren't you done with the first half? What makes you think it's not Roger?

Being "stuck" isn't necessarily a moot point.

I'm not saying that your points are invalid, in fact many people share some of these gripes (including me).

What do you know about Ardenol? I didn't think that had been revealed in the first half. I suppose that's something that you spoiled yourself. But that's not what I was talking about with the "dramatic conclusions." In fact, it wasn't as big a deal to me as others in this community. There was certainly nothing very dramatic about its revelation, in terms of Linden's journey--not like the end of the first half.

No. I figured Roger out on my own...knew it when he and J were getting drunk, then later beat up what'sisface. Thought it should have been revealed when they were drinking...I had an inkling at the beginning of FR, too..

...Ardenol I did accidentaly find out about, but, Thoemach says that Linden knows his name...and well, there's only so many characters from the 2nd Chrons that Linden knows the name of that Theomach fits...

I just figured out the answer to my question but the answer opens another whole bag of terrible worms: if one who drinks and has the power of command can just think something and it happens...then I guess they could think it and go wherever they wanted too...but it raises the question, why did Roger wait for Linden to do it? Is a contrived "the croyel/Jeremiah needs Wild's Wood to do it" really it...I mean, Really?!

[wayfriend]

but it raises the question, why did Roger wait for Linden to do it?

Roger didn't wait for Linden to do it. Linden beat him to it.

Then she threw herself headlong toward her companions; stretched out into a dive along the glazed surface of the stone.

In a flare of brimstone surprise and fury, both Covenant and Jeremiah leapt aside. ...

Linden landed heavily; skidded past them. As she hit the stone, she slid, and went on sliding ... Within half a dozen paces - and mere inches from the rill - she coasted to a halt.

Covenant's curses followed her down the tunnel. They drew closer as he and Jeremiah rushed to catch up with her. ...

Then she wheeled to confront her companions as though they had become her foes. ...

She stood between her companions and their goal.

[Zarathustra]

I think we all knew to suspect Covenant, from the very first page (if not the last page of Runes). In fact, Donaldson just about beat us over the head with that. But at the same time (this is where his mastery comes in), I think we all wanted it to be Thomas. So "love" was a glamor for us, too. He set up a very plausible reason for Covenant to be acting like a jerk. And Jeremiah helped sell it. So while I was suspecting that this wasn't Thomas--or that Thomas was "possessed" by Foul--I still thought that perhaps the real trick was that this was Thomas, and that SRD was misleading us in order to mislead us. He was making it so obvious that we should suspect Covenant, that I began to think this was itself misdirection.

So Roger didn't immediately occur to me. However, after Berek, I did actually think, "I wonder what Roger has been up to all this time? How come he's not in the story?" But I didn't connect that with what was right in front of me. I was surprised with the mid-book reveal.

I also didn't figure out the Theomach's identity. I didn't really spend much time on it, because I didn't want to spoil it for myself. So I just went along with the flow of the story.

Is a contrived "the croyel/Jeremiah needs Wild's Wood to do it" really it...I mean, Really?!

You're probably getting tired of hearing us say this . . . but I hope this doesn't spoil anything for you to admit that I have no idea what you're talking about.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

AFAICT.

???

[wayfriend]

AFAICT.

???

As Far As I Can Tell.

For Example: AFAICT you didn't see my post above, which no longer says AFAICT in it.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Is a contrived "the croyel/Jeremiah needs Wild's Wood to do it" really it...I mean, Really?!

You're probably getting tired of hearing us say this . . . but I hope this doesn't spoil anything for you to admit that I have no idea what you're talking about.

- Personally, I soooooo wanted it to be Roger, a plot twist! Whereas the whole paradox/duality of personality that I thought SRD was doing with Esmer AND Covenant, thinking that maybe I was wrong about Cov being Roger, just didn't work for me. And, like Pietten before him, IMO, Esmer could have been sooooooooooooooooooo much more than he is/are/were/will be...

- Why did Roger wait until he could deceive Linden to go back in time and try to use the power of command? Why bring Linden at all? why go to Revelstone first?

- Wild's Wood is a reference to Jeremiah/croyel seeming to need the exact stuff to make certian "doors", and in this case it was wood from Garroting Deep.

[wayfriend]

Why did Roger wait until he could deceive Linden to go back in time and try to use the power of command? Why bring Linden at all? why go to Revelstone first?

He needed Linden as cover so that the Elohim would not stop him. It's in the text.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Why did Roger wait until he could deceive Linden to go back in time and try to use the power of command? Why bring Linden at all? why go to Revelstone first?

He needed Linden as cover so that the Elohim would not stop him. It's in the text.

Does that explination work for you? Why then would the Elohim not get involved, beyond the Colossus event at the end of PTP, in the first Chrons?

[wayfriend]

Why did Roger wait until he could deceive Linden to go back in time and try to use the power of command? Why bring Linden at all? why go to Revelstone first?

He needed Linden as cover so that the Elohim would not stop him. It's in the text.

Does that explination work for you? Why then would the Elohim not get involved, beyond the Colossus event at the end of PTP, in the first Chrons?

It's not the most exciting explanation in the world... but, yeah, it works.

In the First Chronicles, the Arch was never endangered. Covenant lacked the power. In the same way that the they trusted Linden to keep Roger in check, they truested Covenant to keep Foul in check. There's no inconsistency, if that's what you're looking for.

[Zarathustra]

Ultimately, it's a contrivance. Donaldson inserted nearly omnipotent characters into his creation. So he had to set limits upon them, otherwise they'd ruin all the suspense of any story he wanted to write in this world. And the limit for the Elohim was one of personality, character (the best kind of all for a character-driven story). Along with their awesome power comes a nearly equal arrogance. They don't think the events in the Land warrant their intervention--it's beneath them. Too small. As long as someone else can deal with it, they're fine letting them deal with it (and this backs up their notion that it's beneath them if a lesser being can handle it). They only get involved if their existence is threatened.

It works for me.

[Vraith]

I think it's important to note on this....the elohim are often aloof, but they are very very concerned with time. Roger in the past, with any power at all isn't just a maybe threat to the Arch, he is cocked and loaded and he and the Elohim know it. He had to have cover.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Thanks Vraith, I haven't read the book in 1 1/2 years and I had forgotten about that itty-bitty detail.

I need a refresher course in FR. But I'm not going to re-read it right now since I have three more Gap books to finish right now. I guess there is always the Dissecting forum.

Let's see if I got this straight. Roger could have gone back in time himself, but he couldn't because the Elohim would have prevented any move against the Arch. That really doesn't require power in this case, only changing the history of the Land. Anyway, he needed to use Linden as cover. But why was she useful to Roger for that end? Because he wanted to use her white gold as protection?

And why didn't he just bring his own white gold to the Land?

[Auleliel]

Let's see if I got this straight. Roger could have gone back in time himself, but he couldn't because the Elohim would have prevented any move against the Arch. That really doesn't require power in this case, only changing the history of the Land. Anyway, he needed to use Linden as cover. But why was she useful to Roger for that end? Because he wanted to use her white gold as protection?

She was useful because the Elohim probably assumed that she could (and would) stop Roger from damaging the Arch of Time, what with her being the Chosen and all. I think that was the only reason she was useful, she already had the trust of the Elohim. I don't think Roger was actually in any need of help or protection from Linden or the white gold, and he probably assumed he could beat her if it came to a fight.

And why didn't he just bring his own white gold to the Land?

I didn't think Roger had a white gold wedding ring. AFAICT he isn't married.