Battlestar Galactica Thread 2...

[Variol Farseer]

The only possible flaw in my eyes is that the characters are too screwed up.

At times I think so too, but I think that the backstory set this up so that it makes sense. Basically, the peacetime Colonies were "fat, dumb, and happy"; the military was comparable to the U.S. military between WWI and WWII, in that discipline was lax, there was no sense of mission, and the government and citizenry saw very little value in even having a standing army/navy. The "best and the brightest" were getting rich in the civilian sector.

That's precisely when a military doesn't have screwed-up characters in it. In a small army, the crazies stand out a lot more, and because they're not doing anything immediately necessary, it's a lot easier to flush them out of the service.

Also, you have the luxury of turning down all but the best recruits, which a big standing army or a wartime army cannot do. One of the reasons the U.S. Army has been so much more effective in combat in recent years than it was in Vietnam is that the Pentagon is no longer obsessed with the number of warm bodies in uniform. They've gotten picky about whom they will allow to serve.

It's difficult to believe that a group of borderline crazies like the Galactica cast would be able to function as professional officers in a peacetime military. But while you're immersed in the Sturm und Drang of an episode, you don't really notice. One of the hallmarks of good art is that it presents the implausible in a plausible way; by that standard (and some others, I think), the new BG is good art.

[FizbansTalking_Hat]

I have been keeping up with the new series here in Canada, it's a bit delayed so we're still about 3/4 into the current season but I will say this, I absolutely LOVE this show, its very well done and very impressive.

I find the issues that they are confronting are very interesting, faith and intelligence in artifical life, the interplay between a government and its people, the military role in society, there is so much to take in.

The character are very real to me and I find myself empathising with their plight and their struggles.

Cheers for the show.[/color

[Warmark Jay]

That's precisely when a military doesn't have screwed-up characters in it. In a small army, the crazies stand out a lot more, and because they're not doing anything immediately necessary, it's a lot easier to flush them out of the service.

Also, you have the luxury of turning down all but the best recruits, which a big standing army or a wartime army cannot do. One of the reasons the U.S. Army has been so much more effective in combat in recent years than it was in Vietnam is that the Pentagon is no longer obsessed with the number of warm bodies in uniform. They've gotten picky about whom they will allow to serve.

It's difficult to believe that a group of borderline crazies like the Galactica cast would be able to function as professional officers in a peacetime military. But while you're immersed in the Sturm und Drang of an episode, you don't really notice. One of the hallmarks of good art is that it presents the implausible in a plausible way; by that standard (and some others, I think), the new BG is good art.

That's true of the U.S. military AFTER Reagan came into office, but Ron Moore has said that he's been influenced by "old school" war movies ("In Harm's Way" and "From Here To Eternity" come to mind), and I think that the show has a James Jones feel to the way it portrays the Galactica and her crew.

[theDespiser]

sweet, a thread of mine has gone 2 pages \m/

[Variol Farseer]

That's true of the U.S. military AFTER Reagan came into office, but Ron Moore has said that he's been influenced by "old school" war movies ("In Harm's Way" and "From Here To Eternity" come to mind), and I think that the show has a James Jones feel to the way it portrays the Galactica and her crew.

I was thinking specifically of the U.S. military between 1919 and 1941; also of the Canadian military, which is quite small in numbers, but always had a very high reputation for the training and morale of its troops -- at least equal to the British, not quite as high as the Israelis -- until drastic funding cuts in the last two decades drove the best people away into civilian life. Canadian NCOs have sometimes had to go to charity food banks because they were not paid enough to feed their families. Even in those conditions, the esprit de corps of the Canadian Forces held up well for a great many years.

Anyone who takes 'old school' war movies, or any other kind of movies, as an authentic depiction of life in a military organization, is a fool. Movies are no substitute for research. And remember, you're talking about war movies, whereas I'm talking about a peacetime professional military. The two really are not comparable at all. Most of the celebrated stupidity of the military occurs in wartime, when huge numbers of poorly-trained recruits flood the services, and inexperienced junior officers are promoted to fill the new command positions.

[Warmark Jay]

Wow. Name-calling.

[Variol Farseer]

Wow. Name-calling.

And I stand by it. If someone does sloppy research, and then defends it by saying he saw such-and-such in old movies, that is no defence at all. Merely to offer it as such opens one to the suspicion that the grey matter has not been removed from the shrinkwrap.

I wish I had a penny for every time I've heard a critic complain that modern filmmakers don't base their works on life or even imagination, but on previous films. Many of them have been a lot nastier about it than I have.

But let me be perfectly clear and specific: I'm saying that Ron Moore is a fool if he thinks 'old school' war movies are a substitute for actual knowledge of how military officers are likely to behave and think. I'm not calling you a fool, because all you did was report what he said. The worst I could think about you is that you're not sufficiently versed in details of military culture to tell which attitude was more usual in the history of the services, the post-Vietnam/pre-Reagan one or the post-Reagan one. Most people aren't. It just happens to be one of those things that I picked up information about whilst trying to study something else.

If you thought my remarks were directed at you personally, I apologize. I should have been more clear from the outset.

[Warmark Jay]

Variol, couple of things:

Ron Moore taking ques from a film genre doesn't make him a fool any more than any other fiction writer who's been inspired by previous imaginary works. There's certainly a difference between Hollywood's version of the military and the real deal. In Galactica's case, such influences make for much better drama: I'm not sure people would turn in if Moore's guiding text was the latest Samuel Eliot Morrison potboiler. And many of the great military fiction writers of the time did spend time in uniform or on the lines; James Jones, Hemingway, Mailer...history is a matter of perspective (a lie agreed upon, as a famous French guy once observed), and even in the movies there's shreads of "the truth".

Having a father who was a career officer and devoting a great deal of my collegiate studies to the U.S. military's role in international affairs (along with time spent in NROTC), I'm more than a bit familiar with those differences myself. Of the U.S. military between the world wars, there's plenty of material to suggest that the peacetime army and navy had it's share of the unique problems that have afflicted peacetime military forces throughout history.

So no offense taken.

[Variol Farseer]

Good, then. And I'm glad to see that you do have grounds for your position.

Still, better men than those Galactica officers were cashiered from the military in those lean years, and some who volunteered for active duty after Pearl Harbor were still refused.

As to the other point: Jones, Hemingway, and Mailer are are very well, but when the original sources are so copiously available, why base one's work on imitations?

What the U.S. saw in the 1970s, and Canada in the last decade or two, is not so much a peacetime military as a demoralized one. The French Army was in similar plight in the 1930s, and collapsed as soon as the Wehrmacht kicked the door in. History is filled with such cases: the legions at Adrianople, the Byzantine themes at Manzikert, the vaunted might of Persia unravelling like the Gordian knot when pinpricked by that Macedonian chappie. Sometimes the state recovers and builds a new army, as in Reagan's case; more often, not.

But even in such circumstances, one seldom finds so showy a collection of misfits under a single command. In cold blood, I wonder how the Galactica lot can tie their shoes without impaling themselves on their toes. On that point, I'm afraid we can only agree to differ.

[Warmark Jay]

In cold blood, I wonder how the Galactica lot can tie their shoes without impaling themselves on their toes.

Of course, the flip side of Galactica's dysfunctional crew were the Warriors of the OS, one of whom could single-handedly wipe out a squadron of Raiders in the air or destroy a entire Cylon platoon on the ground (with only a pistol!), all while wearing those snazzy-looking suede jackets...

[Variol Farseer]

In cold blood, I wonder how the Galactica lot can tie their shoes without impaling themselves on their toes.

Of course, the flip side of Galactica's dysfunctional crew were the Warriors of the OS, one of whom could single-handedly wipe out a squadron of Raiders in the air or destroy a entire Cylon platoon on the ground (with only a pistol!), all while wearing those snazzy-looking suede jackets...

True. They're equal and opposite errors, and one does not justify the other.

It's like the man who had one foot in a bucket of boiling water, and the other in a block of ice, but he was comfortable on average.

[Warmark Jay]

Well, right or wrong, I enjoy the show for what it is and what it isn't (in other words, if Count Iblis ever shows up, I will put my foot through the screen). Moore took on a fairly daunting task - remake a show that IMHO was one of the hallmarks of horrid, derivative TV sci-fi - and thus far has done well with it. I'm wondering when we're going to see "Buck Rogers: The Next Generation"....

[Fist and Faith]

"Weenie weenie weenie weenie weenie. Get 'em, Buck!"

My favorite thing about BSG:TOS (LOL) is the No-Men. (Noh-Men?) Those Haruchai-like dudes who were on the Bloodhunt for Fred Astaire. Man, that was cool!! Heh. But seriously, they kicked ass!

[Warmark Jay]

I forgot about them! With the hoods and the beards, right? Too funny. Almost as good as "Red-Eye", the evil Cylon Sheriff of Frontier Planet.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, Red-Eye!

Anyway, did anyone see the season finale??????????? HOLY @#$%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I sure didn't see THAT coming!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nathan]

Yes, that was amazing wasn't it? Completely unexpected, excellent work from the writers!

[safetyjedi]

I can't wait for the new season in July! I do wish they would have kept some of the terms like Centon and Yahren and other things. I also couldn't believe it when one of the foods they ate was peanut butter. One good thing about the original was all the different names they had for stuff.

The finale was absolutely awesome!

[theDespiser]

i think theyre trying to play up the relationship between earth and Cobal, and the humans n such...some things are different, while others are the same...

the writers, directors, and actors are all coming back for the second season...so at least there will be two good seasons...i hope thety stay on for the show...at least 6 or so seasons...i know we cant have them flying towards earth forever, but that could last that long...

[safetyjedi]

As long as they don't remake BG 1980!

[theDespiser]

yeah, how bogus was it that they found earth, only to find that Disco was around