Elena coming on to Thomas

[KaosArcana]

Ryzel:

The strange thing here is that in our world we consider rape evil because of the consequences for the victims. And a great amount of this is the physical and especially psychological damage done, which in our world is considered irreparable.

Lena, however, does not live in our world. She lives in a world where nerves can be regrown by mud and where the earth itself will speak to you if you know how to listen to it. So why is it that she is so irreparably scarred by Covenants actions? And even more so, why does her daughter carry the mark of the same evil (if you accept that) when both her grandmother and her 'stepfather' both are paragons of virtue as seen in the land (They uphold the Oath of Peace)?

Another point is that how is it that rape is known in the Land at all? If the health sight that Linden possesses in the second chronicles is common in the first chronicles how can people bear to do such a thing at all knowing the pain of others like they do?

Hurtloam doesn't cure madness. I think that's pretty obvious. After
all, the Hurtloam cured Covenant's leprosy, but it didn't make him
any less of a jerk.

Hurtloam could have healed Lena's physical injuries, but it couldn't
have restored her innocence. I'm not talking about her virginity; I'm
talking about her faith in people. Covenant's attack was so outside
her experience that it shattered her mind.

Hurtloam couldn't heal her. The Lords couldn't heal her. (We know
that they tried because Bannor mentions it.)

I don't think the people of the Land committed violence against each
other. They know about it as a historical oddity-- they trained their
Warward for it-- but I don't think it's something they have in their
personal experience ... until the First Chronicles start.

[Fist and Faith]

In the real world there can be no justification for raping someone.

No justification in any fictional world either.

But the paradox of Covenant is here. We are replused by his rape yet feel compassion for the mitigating factors:

Can we feel compassion for the mitigating factors in a real-world rape? For me, the whole point of literature and movies - pretty much all genres of human creativity - is, aside from entertainment, to make us examine real-life issues. Some of us enjoy the fantasy medium, some prefer musicals, some like drama. But whatever the vehicle, I want it to help me explore issues of philosophy, morality, etc. I don't decide that something is good or bad for fictional characters, but not for real people.

I am always appalled whenever anyone says that you can excuse Covenant for the rape of Lena because 'hey - he thought it was a dream', for me that doesn't work - Its just like saying 'hey its O.K its just a book' The principle of the thing is what counts.

I assume it is clear from the above that I agree. SRD does too. In the preface to Gilden-Fire, he writes:

Since it cannot stand on its own as an independent story, GILDEN-FIRE will surely not be read by anyone unfamiliar with "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever." And those readers know that the question of whether or not the Land is ultimately "real" (whether or not a character like Korik is sufficiently "actual" to serve as a narrative view-point) no longer matters. In reality as in dreams, what matters is the answer we find in our hearts to the test of Despite.

amanibhavam also said it very well above.

Another point is that how is it that rape is known in the Land at all? If the health sight that Linden possesses in the second chronicles is common in the first chronicles how can people bear to do such a thing at all knowing the pain of others like they do?

Maybe people of the Land have gone insane at times, and raped. Which would mean that, at least in the Land, evil=mental disorder. (I considered the same possibility for immortals in Highlander.)

[Prince of Amber]

Hello Masrock
Of course I read your post - all of it, word by word. I did say that this was a complicated subject didn't I? I really don't see things in black and white, and I didn't say that it was just the descriptions of the Land that kept me reading after Covenants awful crime - I could have gone on to talk about the sheer joy I felt when first meeting Foamfollower, and the anguish at the plight of the wraiths at the celebration of Spring - these things and many, many others held my attention and captivated me so much that I could go on reading (and I must have read them all at least 10 times now)
I just wanted to point out that I didn't feel any compassion for Covenant, all of my compassion was used up on Lena and I had none left, I see Literature and Movies in the same way as Fist and Faith, I think that the rape is such a pivotal part of the plot and its wholly right that we have such in depth discussions about it. I can see now that my post could be read as a dig at you and I'm sorry for that, it wasn't intended.

[Ryzel]

I am always appalled whenever anyone says that you can excuse Covenant for the rape of Lena because 'hey - he thought it was a dream', for me that doesn't work - Its just like saying 'hey its O.K its just a book' The principle of the thing is what counts.

I just have to say that I totally disagree. Of course it is an excuse if he thinks it is just a dream. It is what you do that counts, not what you want to do; or even thinks that you have done.

[masrock]

Thanks Prince

Apology accepted, thanks fro the clarification.


Masrock

[duchess of malfi]

I think rape might be known in the Land. When Triock tracks down TC and Atiaran he says that TC had ravished Lena -- and Atiaran figured out what had happened pretty quickly.
And isn't what the Ravers do a spiritual form of that very act?

[phoebe]

I really felt compassion for Covenant. I would for feel the same way for anyone driven (not purely by base desire) to commit something that, well, in a normal state they would never do. but I don't think whether or not what he did could or should be justified is important to me. It is something everyone will always be divided on according to opinion anyway.

Can we feel compassion for the mitigating factors in a real-world rape? For me, the whole point of literature and movies - pretty much all genres of human creativity - is, aside from entertainment, to make us examine real-life issues. Some of us enjoy the fantasy medium, some prefer musicals, some like drama. But whatever the vehicle, I want it to help me explore issues of philosophy, morality, etc. I don't decide that something is good or bad for fictional characters, but not for real people.

Er, yes, we can.
Well, if you think of it this way, i felt reading this chapter did give me a better comprehension of offenders in the real world. And I'm not making any excuses for anyone, i just (personally) felt understanding for TC.

I think SRD never wanted us to forgive Covenant (just as Covenants never wants anybody to forgive him). He wants us to accept that despite this evil act - for which there is an explanation but no excuse - he can redeem himself in the end. It is the process that we witness - his understanding that dream or no dream he is responsible for his acts and has to deal with the consequences.

Very well put! I Agree completely!!

[caamora]

I think we may have gotten off the subject. This thread started out discussing Elena and her "offering" of herself to TC. It has turned into a discussion of Covenant and rape. Goodness knows this isn't the first time this subject has been debated and it certainly won't be the last!

So - back to the subject. In reading the other posts, a thought occurred to me. Is it possible that Elena expected Covenant to act exactly the way he did? I forget who it was who posted exactly what happened in the book, but Elena allows TC to - for lack of a better word - attack her. Yes, she does come on to him first, but he begins to rip her clothes off as if he may rape her. Could it be that Lena taught her to accept this kind of treatment from him? After all, Lena still worships TC even after what he did to her. I hope I'm explaining myself well. Isn't is possible that Lena just taught Elena that "this is just how TC is and we must accept his will"?

[phoebe]

Sorry caamora!
I was just going along with what was most recently posted.

Is it possible that Elena expected Covenant to act exactly the way he did?

Wowsers this is a very interesting point!! i always kind of thought that but wouldn't have said
I'm now running off to read TIW again...

[Fist and Faith]

I think you're right, caamora. That's what I meant in my reply to Turiya Foul's saying that Elena deserved to get hit. She must have at least considered the possibility that Covenant would behave this way, and, as you say, she was certainly raised being told that it is their duty to endure such things for the sake of the Land.

[jonnyredleader]

i get so frustrated when i hear people say Elena is mad and she tried to seduce covenant or that covenant cracked her because he was just about to rape her and feeling ostracized. Covenant hit Elena because he found her attractive and more importantly she offered him something he so desperately needed...LOVE and UNDERSTANDING. He was THAT close to taking it but he recognised that it was another delusion either by his own subconscious or Fouls manipulation (arguably the same thing) and he couldnt take it or it would drive him mad (in the real world).
In the end he recognises the paradox and Elenas love and his final acceptance of this and his potence and responsibility that makes him march to fouls creche to kick some butt.

[jonnyredleader]

its almost a repeat of his act with Lena except Elenas response is different to Lenas and covenant quails recognising this.

[Orlion]

One more post, and you got a hundred
It's nice to hear you defend Elena. There's so few people that actually take that stance, it's an interesting perspective.

[jonnyredleader]

haha well lets make it a hundred then, how are you Orlion its good to hear from you again. i almost went to see Iron Maiden recently but a job interview (which i didnt get!!) interfered. I wont make that mistake again!
Well i base my observations form my own perspective i guess but whenever SRD writes about Elena he always mentions compassion, love and passion. her flaw is her hate of Foul and im not sure i wouldnt feel the same if i was there. i dont have Mhorams self control, im too fallible and human but as SRD says every weakness is a potential strength and Elena could have so easily turned the tide in the war had she made a diferent decision or covenant had not arrived. after all it was her insight that unlocked the secret to Mhorams discovery.

[jonnyredleader]

i get so frustrated when i hear people say Elena is mad and she tried to seduce covenant or that covenant cracked her because he was just about to rape her and feeling ostracized. Covenant hit Elena because he found her attractive and more importantly she offered him something he so desperately needed...LOVE and UNDERSTANDING. He was THAT close to taking it but he recognised that it was another delusion either by his own subconscious or Fouls manipulation (arguably the same thing) and he couldnt take it or it would drive him mad (in the real world).
In the end he recognises the paradox and Elenas love and his final acceptance of this and his potence and responsibility that makes him march to fouls creche to kick some butt.

[Orlion]

i almost went to see Iron Maiden recently but a job interview (which i didnt get!!) interfered. I wont make that mistake again!

Kids and yer job interviews!

[jonnyredleader]

Haha I'm almost ready to give up and live on commune!

[race2three]

The first time I read Lord Foul's Bane and got to the part where Covenant raped Lena I thought the reason (not to be confused with justification, or my thinking it was somehow "ok")he lost control and raped Lena was something he did without true volition. He had not accepted that he was anywhere but unconsious in the "real" world...so he didn't know where he was...he didn't even believe that Lena really existed... he had spent years not only as a pariah, but learning and coming to grips with his leprosy...he had gotten past wishing he could get back to his normal life...he had become accustumed to "not being able to feel" a large part of him was literally dead...he had his rituals down...when Lena spread the hurtloam on Covenant...and all of a sudden he was "cured"almost resurrected...and everything he had lived and experienced in the last years, the things he had had to work so hard to contend with...his leprosy becoming a "law" of his life...in an instant all that was gone...the physical, mental, and emotional jolt was so intense that he went insane for those few moments. He didn't know right from wrong, up from down, then from now, here from there. It was like being suddently part of an electrical circuit...your brain can't "think" you have no control over your body...I think it was similar to that. Thomas Covenant raped Lena...but Thomas Covenant wasn't a "rapist". To me, when I read that part of the book for the first time I felt Covenant wasn't "himself" at that moment in the truest sense of the concept. I think Donaldson may have been trying to show just how "unbelievable" the Land was to Covenant. Looking at Lena on the other hand...it was heartbreaking...

[jonnyredleader]

I agree and i think there is more to it albeit a more subtle but much more profound awareness and understanding within Covenants character.
Through Lena and then Elena i believe he realises that it doesnt matter whether the land is real or not, it cuts both ways, the love he learns and the consequences of his actions are about the choices he makes regardless of the real or imagined and define him as a person.
He cant justify his delusion or his sanity with acts of violence and write them off as such.
It all comes from the same place so he must tread the paradox carefully.

[wayfriend]

I agree with everything you said, race2three. But it is also necessary that Covenant (and the reader) understands that it is a heinous crime nonetheless. Yes, we can say that there were circumstances which drove Covenant out of his usual self. But on the other hand, he can't excuse it away, even by reason of temporary insanity: he could not rape someone unless somewhere inside of him was a capacity to rape, however bottled up it might be. So: he's guilty --- but he's not entirely despicable. That's the fine point upon which Donaldson needs the reader to sit. Everyone has a rapist inside them, but that's not the whole story of ourselves either.

And I agree with what you said, jonnyredleader. The dream excuse doesn't work. Because there's still a rapist inside us, whether it comes out in a dream or in a reality. It can't be argued away, it must be accepted.

Dexter would say, "We all have a dark passenger."