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Post by finn »

I think there is a big difference between qualifying variables in equations and within systems that have variations, ie calculus type applications etc. but in areas where there are accusations levelled at people I think there should be accountability on both sides. I mean if this turns out to be just another big puff of smoke for a senator to big note themselves with is that not equally of concern to taxpayers who will then foot the bill of an enquiry? Is there some comeback on Inhofe if he's just beating up a couple of guys for political brownie points? That would equally be oversight on spending public money (which I thought you were against anyway... :P )

There has been little if any substantial evidence that has resulted from the whole "climategate" farce, that has pointed to anything other than a bit of laxity on what goes into an email and what's best left unsaid. There have been no criminal charges and no actions taken as a result of the stolen and leaked emails except the suspension of Jones whilst it is determined IF he has actually done anything wrong!

As for Mann/Hansen have a look at one of the emails Mann sent to Curt Covey and think about where the inappropriate actions are....I would remind you that Monckton IS a documented and verified Quack.
Curt, I can't believe the nonsense you are spouting, and I furthermore cannot imagine why you would be so presumptuous as to entrain me into an exchange with these charlatans. What ib earth are you thinking? You're not even remotely correct in your reading of the report, first of all. The AR4 came to stronger conclusions that IPCC(2001) on the leoclimate
conclusions, finding that the recent warmth is likely anomalous in the last 1300 years, not just the last 1000 years. The AR4 SPM very much backed up the key findings of the TAR The Jones et al reconstruction which you refer to actually looks very much like ours, and the statement about more variability referred to the 3 reconstructions (Jones et al, Mann et al, Briffa et a) shown in the TAR, not just Mann et al. The statement also does not commit to whether or not those that show more variability are correct or not. Some of those that do (for example, Moberg et al and Esper et al) show no similarity to each other. I find it terribly irresponsible for you to be sending messages like this to Singer and Monckton. You are speaking from ignorance here, and you must further know how your statements are going to be used. You could have sought some feedback from others who would have told you that you are speaking out of your depth on this. By instead simply blurting all of this nonsense out in an email to these sorts charlatans you've done some irreversible damage. shame on
you for such irresponsible behavior! Mike Mann -- Michael E. Mann Associate Professor
Director, Earth System Science Center (ESSC) Department of Meteorology
Now I am accepting Manns version here, but I do know Monckton to be a quack and that does then act as a keystone to the rest.

I have again and again asserted the need for proper qualification of the science, but this whole climategate nonsense, broken in the media for the Copenhagan conference is dust not smoke; there is no fire. By all means spend more dollars on an audit that seeks to try to overturn the work of 620 units in 40 countries based on supposition of potential irregularities. Where will the money come from if something that is actually substantial and important arises and needs to be reviewed...... cry wolf enough.
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If we have nothing to fear from an audit, then there shouldn't be any opposition to them carrying one out.

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Post by finn »

Based on this Minority Staff report, Senator Inhofe will be calling for an investigation into potential research misconduct and possible criminal acts by the researchers involved. At the same time, Inhofe will ask the Environmental Protection Agency to reopen its consideration of an Endangerment Finding for carbon dioxide as a pollutant under the Federal Clean Air Act, and will ask Congress to withdraw funding for further consideration of carbon dioxide as a pollutant.
Hardly an audit.......

In fact quite the opposite, calling for a withdrawal of funding to determine the nature of CO2 as a pollutant,
If we have nothing to fear from an (CO2), then there shouldn't be any opposition to them ("funding further consideration").
Works both ways!
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Funding shouldn't be withdrawn until the research has been audited and proved faulty.

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Post by Cail »

Avatar wrote:Funding shouldn't be withdrawn until the research has been audited and proved faulty.
What? We should fund things until they're disproved? That doesn't make any sense at all. We shouldn't be funding anything until it's proven that there's a need.
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But the funding has already been provided. If they've agreed to fund something, but want to stop it on the basis of a claim like this, shouldn't it be proven that the claim is justified before the funding is stopped?

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Post by Cail »

So they should continue with a mistake just because? That doesn't make much sense. It makes manifestly more sense to suspend the funding until it can be proven that the funding is actually doing something.
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Post by Zarathustra »

The people providing the funding should be able to insist upon whatever standards they want. If Mann doesn't like it, he can go work somewhere else. He doesn't have a right to my tax dollars.
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Post by finn »

Cail wrote:So they should continue with a mistake just because? That doesn't make much sense. It makes manifestly more sense to suspend the funding until it can be proven that the funding is actually doing something.
One might assume the funding was approved on that basis in the first place. Just because someone then gets on a soap-box to promote who knows what motives and agendas should simply stop it dead? I mean apply this principle elsewhere and think how ludicrous it can be.
Z wrote:The people providing the funding should be able to insist upon whatever standards they want. If Mann doesn't like it, he can go work somewhere else. He doesn't have a right to my tax dollars..

The people providing the funding did already! Mann is not saying he doesn't like it, Inhofe is.
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Post by Damelon »

I'm not exactly sure how Inhofe qualifies as a scientific expert or how he gets to determine for the rest of us how money for scientific experiments are spent. Let a scientific panel determine how to deal with any issues arising from it.
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Post by Avatar »

Cail wrote:So they should continue with a mistake just because?
They don't know it's a mistake yet. But I suppose you're right. Of course, finding out whether it is or not is going to require funding of it's own.

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Post by Ki »

Members of Congress aren't necessarily experts about sports, banking, oil, health insurance or automobile industries, yet they launch investigations into their activities and make leaders of these industries come before Congress to testify. If Congress thinks it has a right to investigate how private industry conducts its business, then Congress certainly has a right to investigate potential misconduct among scientists who have used billions of dollars of public monies.
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Post by Harbinger »

Global warming caused a massive 8.8 earthquake in Chile today. Hawaii is preparing for a tsunami.
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Post by Avatar »

Agreed Ki. They have that right.

BTW Harbinger, warming can cause earthquakes...reduced pressure on tectonic plates due to less ice pressing down on them.

Not saying this is the cause in this case, just that there can be a relation. In this case, it's probably volcanic activity.

Interestingly enough though, a 400m thick, 2,550km2 block of ice broke off from the Mertz Glacier Tongue earlier this month, making what may be the biggest iceberg known to man...it's the size of Luxembourg.

It's not yet known what effects it may have on ocean currents.

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Post by Harbinger »

Considering that half of the strongest 20 earthquakes have occurred on the pacific coast of South America and four of those were in Chile, including the most powerful earthquake in recorded history, I'd have to agree with you about warming not being a factor in this instance.

An earthquake related to an ice sheet melting would occur in the polar regions .
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Not necessarily. The boundaries of the plates that include the polar regions are pretty far flung. The 2 northern-most plates stretch below the entire US, Europe and Asia, while the Antarctic plate borders South America.

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Post by finn »

I think the Antarctic Peninsula is missing from that map Av. Its northern tip would brush up against the Scotia Plate. I can confirm there is siesmic activity in Deception Island just off the tip as I had a dip in the hot spring!
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

I think this article covers some of the comments made here about whether or not the errors made are significant.



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www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/ ... -IPCC.html




The news from sunny Bali that there is to be an international investigation into the conduct of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and its chairman Dr Rajendra Pachauri would have made front-page headlines a few weeks back. But while Scotland and North America are still swept by blizzards, in their worst winter for decades, there has been something of a lull in the global warming storm – after three months when the IPCC and Dr Pachauri were themselves battered by almost daily blizzards of new scandals and revelations. And one reason for this lull is that the real message of all the scandals has been lost.

The chief defence offered by the warmists to all those revelations centred on the IPCC's last 2007 report is that they were only a few marginal mistakes scattered through a vast, 3,000-page document. OK, they say, it might have been wrong to predict that the Himalayan glaciers would melt by 2035; that global warming was about to destroy 40 per cent of the Amazon rainforest and cut African crop yields by 50 per cent; that sea levels were rising dangerously; that hurricanes, droughts and other "extreme weather events" were getting worse. These were a handful of isolated errors in a massive report; behind them the mighty edifice of global warming orthodoxy remains unscathed. The "science is settled", the "consensus" is intact.

But this completely misses the point. Put the errors together and it can be seen that one after another they tick off all the central, iconic issues of the entire global warming saga. Apart from those non-vanishing polar bears, no fears of climate change have been played on more insistently than these: the destruction of Himalayan glaciers and Amazonian rainforest; famine in Africa; fast-rising sea levels; the threat of hurricanes, droughts, floods and heatwaves all becoming more frequent.

All these alarms were given special prominence in the IPCC's 2007 report and each of them has now been shown to be based, not on hard evidence, but on scare stories, derived not from proper scientists but from environmental activists. Those glaciers are not vanishing; the damage to the rainforest is not from climate change but logging and agriculture; African crop yields are more likely to increase than diminish; the modest rise in sea levels is slowing not accelerating; hurricane activity is lower than it was 60 years ago; droughts were more frequent in the past; there has been no increase in floods or heatwaves.

Furthermore, it has also emerged in almost every case that the decision to include these scare stories rather than hard scientific evidence was deliberate. As several IPCC scientists have pointed out about the scare over Himalayan glaciers, for instance, those responsible for including it were well aware that proper science said something quite different. But it was inserted nevertheless – because that was the story wanted by those in charge.

In addition, we can now read in shocking detail the truth of the outrageous efforts made to ensure that the same 2007 report was able to keep on board IPCC's most shameless stunt of all – the notorious "hockey stick" graph purporting to show that in the late 20th century, temperatures had been hurtling up to unprecedented levels. This was deemed necessary because, after the graph was made the centrepiece of the IPCC's 2001 report, it had been exposed as no more than a statistical illusion. (For a full account see Andrew Montford's The Hockey Stick Illusion, and also my own book The Real Global Warming Disaster.)

In other words, in crucial respects the IPCC's 2007 report was no more than reckless propaganda, designed to panic the world's politicians into agreeing at Copenhagen in 2009 that we should all pay by far the largest single bill ever presented to the human race, amounting to tens of trillions of dollars. And as we know, faced with the prospect of this financial and economic abyss, December's Copenhagen conference ended in shambles, with virtually nothing agreed.

What is staggering is the speed and the scale of the unravelling – assisted of course, just before Copenhagen, by "Climategate", the emails and computer codes leaked from East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit. Their significance was the light they shone on the activities of a small group of British and US scientists at the heart of the IPCC, as they discussed ways of manipulating data to show the world warming faster than the evidence justified; fighting off legitimate requests for data from outside experts to hide their manipulations; and conspiring to silence their critics by excluding their work from scientific journals and the IPCC's 2007 report itself. (Again, a devastating analysis of this story has just been published by Stephen Mosher and Tom Fuller in Climategate: The CRUtape Letters).

Almost as revealing as the leaked documents themselves, however, was the recent interview given to the BBC by the CRU's suspended director, Dr Phil Jones, who has played a central role in the global warming scare for 20 years, not least as custodian of the most prestigious of the four global temperature records relied on by the IPCC. In his interview Jones seemed to be chucking overboard one key prop of warmest faith after another, as he admitted that the world might have been hotter during the Medieval Warm Period 1,000 years ago than it is today, that before any rise in CO2 levels temperatures rose faster between 1860 and 1880 than they have done in the past 30 years, and that in the past decade their trend has been falling rather than rising.

The implications of all this for the warming scare, as it has been presented to us over the past two decades, can scarcely be overestimated. The reputation of the IPCC is in shreds. And this is to say nothing of the personal reputation of the man who was the mastermind of its 2007 report, its chairman, Dr Rajendra Pachauri.

It was in this newspaper that we first revealed how Pachauri has earned millions of pounds for his Delhi-based research institute Teri, and further details are still emerging of how he has parlayed his position into a worldwide business empire, including 17 lucrative contracts from the EU alone. But we should not expect the truth to break in too suddenly on this mass of vested interests. Too many people have too much at stake to allow the faith in man-made global warming, which has sustained them so long and which is today making so many of them rich, to be abandoned. The so-called investigations into Climategate and Dr Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann seem like no more than empty establishment whitewashes. There is little reason to expect that the inquiry into the record of the IPCC and Dr Pachauri that is now being set up by the UN Environment Programme and the world's politicians will be very different.

Since 1988, when the greatest scare the world has seen got under way, hundreds of billions
of pounds have been poured into academic research projects designed not to test the CO2 warming thesis but to take it as a given fact, and to use computer models to make its impacts seem as scary as possible. The new global "carbon trading" market, already worth $126 billion a year, could soon be worth trillions. Governments, including our own, are calling for hundreds of billions more to be chucked into absurd "carbon-saving" energy schemes, with the cost to be met by all of us in soaring taxes and energy bills.

With all this mighty army of gullible politicians, dutiful officials, busy carbon traders, eager "renewables" developers and compliant, funding-hungry academics standing to benefit from the greatest perversion of the principles of true science the world has ever seen, who are we to protest that their emperor has no clothes? (How apt that that fairy tale should have been written in Copenhagen.) Let all that fluffy white "global warming" continue to fall from the skies, while people shiver in homes that, increasingly, they will find they can no longer afford to heat. We have called into being a true Frankenstein's monster. It will take a mighty long time to cut it down to size.
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Post by Avatar »

Dunno Finn, I didn't compare. The Antarctic plate is there, will check some others to see if there's an additional one. My point was simply that a quake wouldn't be limited to the polar region if such reduction caused it.

HLT, gotta point out it's an opinion piece...about equally qualified to answer these questions as we are. (Unless the author is a climate scientist himself of course.)

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Post by Cail »

It may be an opinion piece, however the charges it lays out are undisputed facts.
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